If someone breeds American Show Types... - Page 4

Sunsilver- thanks for explaining EXACTLY what I meant :) Perhaps I am so upset about walking the DM path for the second time,  after having lost Jack Flash to DM in 1998 (which led to formation of the DM Support Group) that I didnt make myself clear. 

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Ric... I agree with many of the neg comments about American Show lines in general... also with the European Show lines om general. But NOT ALL OF THEM ARE TRASH! In choosing a new pup I looked at clear headed working lines with a good number of "V" rated dogs. As far as my AKC experiense I handled my own dogs primarilyfor financial reasons, and I didn't finish any Shepherds... Peri was my last from the Am lShow ines, and whatever the faults that may have been behind him he was stable temperment (The Brass band that came thru the armory we showed him @ in Hartford didn't effect his presence in the ring 5 minutes later while others were scrapeing their dogs off the floor... but he was soft as I also stated). 

  I still stand by the idea that well placed outcrosses to import lines could infuse some  needed hardness, masculine charecteristics and over all substance into the American show lines.  NOT to be done by uninformed breeders who breed to a dog ONLY because it's got a Schutzhund degree and know nothing more than that it's a titled import.  By the same token I wouldn't want them breeding pure import lines either.  What lines I had, or if I finished dogs doesn't change that basic point I'm not suggesting that I should be the person making those breedings as I don't know either the American or Import show lines now.

a well respected breeder who crosses german lines with american showlines with sucess is Fairway shepherds.
www.fairwayshepherds.com I believe.

Rik

Rik, I don't recall Uber mentioning the TC? (I did, though.) Until the AKC recognizes Schutzhund, it will have to do as a character assessment. At least it means the dog is gun-sure and not a spook.

As for the Fairway dogs Uber mentions, a dog that has its herding excellent title, and OFA excellent hips has quite a bit going for it, even without a pedigree full of some very good German dogs, such as VA Triumph's Gucci.

Vonnisk, Fred Lanting mentioned the Trommel dogs to me as being worth looking into. They used to have lines going back to Bodo v. Lierberg.

Gustav, to answer your post about temperment, weak temperment is highly inheritable. The American lines are heavily bred on Lance and two of his sons (I forget the names, and I'm too tired to look them up). Fred Lanting wrote an article that said Lance's temperment was okay, but the son's temperments were not. Yet, still people bred their dogs to them.

Why?  Well, a spooky temperment doesn't necessarily show up in the show ring, unless something unusual happens (like a brass band marching through!) So, you can still win ribbons and title your dog, and to some people that's ALL that matters. 

Personally, I'd never dream of buying a dog with a spooky temperment. My first 3 GSD's were rescues of unknown lineage, but at least two were most likely predominantly American show lines. Neither was gunsure, but neither was spooky, either.  And one of them would go after anyone who set foot on our property without being invited. She was a great watchdog! My current bitch is half and half, and is very gunsure and very confident.  

My husband and I once looked at a litter of GSD pups. Most of the pups ran up to greet us, but when we went to take a look at Mama, she hid behind her owner, barking. 

I couldn't get away from there fast enough after I saw that! 

my mention of the fairway kennel was simply this, you have a breeder who started with predominately american showlines.  they incorporated a select few german showlines into the breeding program.  even without the german lines,  their dogs have went on to produce certified police k9's, avalanche rescue dogs, area SAR dogs, therapy dogs, american champions (with and without blended pedigree's) their dogs are active in herding, agility, obed. and I can go on.  they do not update their website often and have gotten up in years so do not actively campaign as much as when they were younger,  but they do have balanced, good tempered dogs, and have produced puppies who have went on to persue many different venues.

another kennel with good success is Jendhi, who also use the trommel lines wisely. 

I agree with the few people who have stated the need to blend the lines. it is what is best for the future of the breed, jmo.  but opinions are like a-holes, everybodies got one.  

Yes, Sunsilver I remember Lance personally and he did have good temperament, his son Cobert's Reno had fabulous temperament. It is not the individual dog that affects the breed negatively, even if extensively used...it is the breeding practices of the the so called top breeders for the next 15 generations that have created this mess. It is the judges that put up these less than stellar dogs, it is the breeders that think the standard starts and ends with croup, shoulder, and length of stifle....or at least that's the first thing they bring up when looking at or describing a GS. Its insanity. And anything that has accumulated over a thirty year period cannot be fixed with one or two breedings to West German Showlines. But this is why I question if these people can be considered responsible breeders? If what they have done has created this dog that the worldwide community laughs at, AND they don't or WON'T do the things it takes to reverse them....how are they not WORSE than a backyard breeder????? I guess I'm just slow!!!

what is best of the best?

each line holds attributes for the breed.  and each line is not without its spooks or poor quality animals.

If you are going to breed GSDs, Rik is right: get the best bitch you can, one who has a solid working temperament and good lines behind her, German V rating and proven working ability. Before you do this, study the bloodlines. Find out which bloodlines complement each other. Talk to many experienced breeders and don't breed until you understand bloodlines.

I have attended a lot of AKC type shows and have seen some nicely structured dogs shown. But they don't finish in the ribbons. The ones that finish in the ribbons are the overly angulated ones with extreme side gait. I wish it weren't so. I've seen GSDs with very nice structure not win points because judges don't seem to have a clue what they are looking at. JMO.

Gustav, some of the American showline breeders breed these Am. dogs because they make money doing it and because they like all the ribbons and trophies and attention they collect. It's not about the dogs, it's about the breeder's ego. You know that, right? They want to title these dogs (Am. Ch. title) by 2 years of age, then breed them. The dogs are done by the time they are 5 or 6 years old.  Many of the really good German dogs are just coming into the prime of life at 4 or 5 and they are still working. 

Would I like to see the GSD breed return to the type of dogs we had in the 1960s? Yes, I would. Go look at any of the GSD books with photos of dogs from that era and you'll see what I mean. Those dogs are mostly not extreme in structure. And you can't really tell at a glance whether the dog is German or American or Canadian or a mix of these lines.

All of that said, can American lines be improved by crossing with German lines? Yes, I think they can. But you have to pick the dogs carefully. American showlines need better shoulders, less hind angulation, better pasterns, better masculinity in males, harder temperaments...Focus on one particular trait (extreme sidegait) and you get a whole host of problems that are going to take a long time to correct.