If someone breeds American Show Types... - Page 3

When I start seeing ASL dogs in working venues again I will take notice of them.....but til then, they're nonexistant to me....The beauty of the dog is in his utility!!!!!!

My point, Rik, is I'm seeing too many German dogs that look like that, rather than that very nice Yasko grandson I posted above.

Would you like me to post some American showline dogs with poor structure as well, so as to be fair about this?  I have no preference for either line. My bitch is a cross of two of the very best American and German lines: Ursus v. Batu, and Kismet's Sight for Sore Eyes (Dallas).

I guess I tend to harp a bit more on the problems with the German showlines, as many people on this board think they are so superior to the American lines. They seem to be blind to the showline's faults. I could post at least a dozen more pictures of showlines that look as bad as, if not worse than the one above. The main fault I'm seeing is a 'broken back', a bacx with an interruption of the smooth curve of the topline. I'm also seeing a lot of very long backs, combined with weak hindquarters and cow-hocks. These are faults that have been present in the American lines for years, and I can't understand why the German breeders are copying them!

Since I already posted a picture of a beautiful German showline dog above, here's one of my favourite working line dogs, Disager's Caesar:

And here's a picture that clearly shows the American GSD's weaknesses:



 

German S/L are certainly not perfect and I have also been to Germany to find this out. But the best of German dogs is so far advanced past the "best" of American lines in every category that the Am. lines should not be called a German Shepherd Dog. 

In no area can the the Am line compare to German. Strength, anatomy, character, muscle tone, teeth. If someone thinks they have the perfect dog in an Am. S.L good for them. Breed a litter of animals suitable for police work, SAR, or even sport and prove it. It ain't going to happen.

JMHO,

Rik

I have to wonder how many of the folks who trash German bred Show lines  have ever been to an SV show??  Or have researched the lines OTHER THAN THE VA winners who are amoung those shown and bred....   same be said for those who trash American Bred Show lines.  

My last ole man was Von Hindenberg's Peregrine, OFA a son of Ch. Rohan's Reaction our of A Crunch/Silent Knight gr daughter. He was substantial, very dark pigmented, definate male head, Very nice shoulder and rear, but wasn't over extreme.  Place I'd fault him is that he was the most lay back easygoing dog you ever saw.  NOTHING ever upset him, in fact we couldn't get him reved up in the ring.  NO he wasn't from the top kennels nor lines in the country, but was from show lines.  Breeding him to a well balanced import would have given me the things he lacked.  I also had a 1/2 American 1/2 German bitch years ago "Hussan's Sweet Audrina"  (Sire:Hussan V. Wilhendorf  Dam full sister to a select bitch) who was all of that and then some!!  She could just as easily gone into the AKC show ring or a Schutzhund club... She enjoyed the one conformation show we showed her in (2nd of 6 bitches in open) and was a natural guard/ PPD.  Friendly if introduced, aloof if not introduced, and gawd help ya if you broke in uninvited! 

My point being that not EVERY American dog, nor EVERY German dog would be good choices for combining the lines, but if the breeder does their research on what type is being produced on either side... The hard part comes when the sales from the litters drops drasticly as others don't share your vision. Doing these blendings (unless you're very well known) is going to cost you $$$ ... and keeping progeny from those breedings to bring back into your gene pool again expensive and time consuming. Too many people want perfection TODAY!!  and don't look down the road 2-3 generations or more to work towards their ideal.

Rik,

Sadly, this kind of attitude will only cause the breed to keep deteriorating, health wise. You can only go into your own, so much, before you have bred massive and serious health problems into your lines. By the time you discover it, it will be too late. Whats that famous line- ask not for whom the bell tolls- it tolls for thee.. Thee being our beloved breed, which will be the innocent victim of both sides of the ocean who are kennel blind ( YES--- > BOTH!) Many of the people who are supposed to be the caretakers of the breed will be the very same ones to destroy it... I have seen too much.... Sadly, much as I love this breed, I would never have one again- its too damn heartbreaking, with no hope for the future. Too many people are too inflexible and set in their ways. Max would NOT be happy.... A dog cannot be a utility dog if it does not have health- without health, it has NOTHING!

sad, very very sad.....

Marjorie
Executive Director: New Beginnings Shepherd Rescue www.newbeginningsrescue.com 501 C3
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I do not need to trash the Am. S/L. The breeders accomplished this years ago.

Rik

Marjorie said:

"Rik,

Sadly, this kind of attitude will only cause the breed to keep deteriorating, health wise. You can only go into your own, so much, before you have bred massive and serious health problems into your lines." 


Sunsilver said essentially the same thing:

 "If you keep on breeding only gold to gold, you're going to get a meltdown!" That's what the laws of genetics dictate! When I got my first GSD in the early 80's dog books said the average lifespan was 11 to 13 years. Now, we have dogs dying at 9 or 10! WHY??

It's called INBREEDING DEPRESSION. And when I look at the German side of my bitch's pedigree, and see the same names over and over, I don't need to ask why it's happening!"


That's the attitude Marjorie is talking about.  However, both German and American breeders are so contemptuous of anything that doesn't match with THEIR idea of the perfect GSD that they keep on inbreeding and inbreeding on the same lines, and would never dream of outcrossing. To them an outcross means bringing in a dog from another showline kennel, preferrably a "VA" rated dog, and mating it to their bitches. They would never dream of bringing in a working line dog, or (heaven forbid!) and American or English style GSD.  That would be getting 'shit' on their 'gold'!  However, if you go back 7 or 8 or 9 generations, the two dogs they've chosen to mate will have exactly the same ancestors.

Same thing with the American dogs. Just try to find an American dog without Lance multiple times in the pedigree. It's impossible!

If you keep breeding to the same dogs with the same ancestors over and over again, you cannot eliminate weaknesses and genetic faults. To do that, you must introduce new blood.

This is basic genetics. There is no escaping it.

The GSD is not in nearly as bad a shape as the rough collie and Sheltie, though. Many of them are as closely related as if they were litter siblings (COI of 50%). 'Collie eye' which in its severe form, results in blindness, is so firmly entrenched in the breed that breeders have given up trying to eliminate it, and will breed animals that are only mildly affected. I think this is why many of the border collie breeders fought long and hard AGAINST recognition by the CKC and AKC. They knew the show ring would ruin their dogs. They also knew that many of their dogs were totally unsuited for anything but a working home.

Hmmm...something about that sounds familiar, don't you think?

I can't afford to travel to Germany, but I've watched the Seiger video clips. Many of the VA dogs showed so poorly on the courage test that it left me wondering how they ever got a Schutzhund degree. Many of them reminded me of the American dogs in the way they could trot like the wind, but almost dragged their butts on the ground at the walk.

I'm trying to sound the alarm bell here. I'm not seeing dogs that look like they could work all day. Some of the German breeders agree. That's the whole reason behind the founding of the RSV 2000.

If you choose any dog with weaknesses - any type - you are taking too big a risk to bring those weakensses forward.  Why bother using a weak tempered Am Showline at all?  Remove her from the genepool.   for that matter, if you start off wtih any dog or female with major weaknesses you are doing yourself, your buyers and the breed a disservice.   Too many people want to take a mediocre female and breed it to a name male in hopes they will improve the female some - this can take 3 - 4 - 5 generations.  Why bother?  Get a stronger female wtih sound character - yes work on structure, but character is most important - do not compromise - you are then producing fodder for shelters, BYB and rescues.  Not fair to anyone.

First of all I would never breed t anything that is weak, in character, structure and esp not temperament, rgardless of the lines it comes from.  Sound like I am defensive but I just want anyone interested to know that I do have ethics and morals. The last thing Iwant to do is produce " fodder" as it was put fr pounds shelters and rescues.  My main thing is to produce future breeding stock.  I kept a puppy back and she as so nice but she didn't turn out like I wanted so I had her spayed and she is here as a much loved pet--and a damn good babysitter for the new pup. LOL.........when I chose he lines I am working with my mentor was already producing some SAR dogs out of pure ASL.  It would seem to me if you all loved the bred as you say you do you would WANT to HELP the Am dogs and not continuously bash them.  All dogs I produce or have anythig to do with producing will always have a home here because I am in a position for that. 

Sunsilver you talk about Canadian dogs--there is a line of dogs I particularly like in Canada--Trommel.  My girl has a lot of those lines on her mom's side.  They mix DDR with show lines and produce some really nice looking dogs. 

I think everyone periodically should evaluate their breeding program.  Are you breeding for the future or for the here and now?  Because JMO if it is just for the here andnow you are not doing the breed any favors...................