Does anyone else see big red flags when- - Page 4

I do know that, Hexe.  They also won't live anywhere near a nuclear plant. I'm wondering if you have ever spoken to someone who has lived through something like that? I was ONLY commenting because I have pets and I will not x-ray them. DNA damage is DNA damage, to US. Don't worry, not trying to convince anyone of anything.

trainning and selling military/police dogs is my job, especially here in europe diffrences between country's are huge!!! to many times i have seen  sv certified dogs who didn't pass medical health test when pics of hips and elbows are retaken also dog's who are examined in holland get diffrent reviews than they had in belgium so even the so called experts don't agree 
​in a year i see about 300-500 diffrent dogs and every country that comes brings their own vet all whit their own opinion/degree's about hips, elbows and spine so mabey i'm arrogant but i don't trust some paper result whitout the proof on a disc if i'm not sure myself i can always ask my own vet, him i do trust otherwise he wouldn't be my vet
i'm very sure a lot of GSD breeders would look very surprized if they asked for actual pics of the sv certified males they've been using, their own vets probebly even more if they would send them the pics
there's to much money involved and as long as money is to be made some people are gona cheat, thats why i want to see the pics myself
spine pics aren't demanded for breeding, for myself they are because it's becomming the next big problem (and not just in gsd already some knpv malinois lines have also the extra vertibra!!!) and if a breeder now already makes the choice to test his breeding stock for me it shows that breeder is at least trying to contain that problem.
if a breeder has problems to show the actual pics, than for me he has something to hide and a dog from that breeder wouldn't enter my kennel so i wouldn't mind if he sends me away i probably would already be running 
 

....

Let me remind everyone of my earlier post:

by Jenni78 on 15 July 2013 - 21:52	Jenni78 Posts: 5783 Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 03:24 pm
They don't know.  I xray German Shepherds, but I don't xray my pets unless there's a reason. I try to have every pup xrayed for that very reason you stated, but I have had a few people basically flat out refuse, saying they don't care, won't do anything different or think differently of the dog no matter what the xray states. What can I do? Put a gun to their heads? There are just a couple like this, so I can still get a pretty good idea, but it sure would be nice for completeness' sake.  One is a super nice, titled boy who I'd love to breed to, but he's over 3 and still not xrayed. Oh well. Maybe if I ever breed another litter, I'll have them pay up front for the OFAs out of the puppy price and have it held as a credit at the vet I use. Maybe they'd be more inspired if they felt like they were throwing money away.
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I realize you just spent a lot of time on that post.

Xrays can "LIE" meaning, they cannot be read accurately because you cannot get a full view of what's going on in a 2 dimensional image of that nature.  the example I had in mind of an xray "lying" for lack of a better word, is one young dog I owned whose elbow xray looked terrible. No one could figure out why he was so perfectly sound. He was xrayed because he was sold. I had the elbow arthroscopically explored (cost me $1928.00 USD, ), because I believe you owe it to ALL your animals, pet or not, proper and complete health care and if arthroscopic surgery to remove damaged cartilage from ED would ensure him a better quality of life as he aged, so be it- he's getting the surgery. Anyway....the elbow turned out not to be damaged, was full of healthy cartilage,  and though abnormal in form, was normal otherwise- the dog actually had NO anconeal process. No one could guess how that occurred- either early, early trauma and it was absorbed, or agenesis, but at any rate, the xray looked nothing like what the surgeon expected to see inside that joint. Someone going off xrays alone would've relegated that poor dog to the couch, most likely, and what a waste of  a sound, working dog. 

I see ANY pointless xray to be unnecessary radiation. I won't expose them to it FOR NO REASON. I think I still have the right to decide what I expose my pets to.  Using radiation on healthy animals for no purpose but deciding how much they can do, to me, is irresponsible and not looking out for the best interests of the animals. I xray breeding dogs and dogs who are being sold and dogs who limp. I do not, and will not, start xraying my sound, healthy pets. I need to stress, again, apparently, that this turned into a question of if there was cause to xray PETS, which is what I was speaking to.  I believe it's unnecessary to xray my pet Pit Bulls, Chihuahuas or raggedy old mutts. It's just ridiculous and a bit transparent to the critical thinking reader I would guess. 

Oh, and I give all my big dogs Adequan or similar. I've done it for almost a decade, whether they "need" it or not. So no, I'm sorry, I don't see myself being the terribly negligent, irresponsible, or cheap individual you tried to paint by not xraying my pet dogs. I am quite confident that there are many others out there who do as I do and that casting them in that light is also not fair, personal feelings aside. 
 

 

Adequan breaks down enzymes in a dog to work. You would rather give all dogs even healthy ones injections that do not need it but no x rays? lol how in the world do you talk your vet in to prescriptions for it for all your dogs? You called x raying pets a waste of money yet we are to take your word that you pay for Adequan for every dog on your place? This is not a preventitive like glucosamine and chondroitin. Adequan is rough on the dogs kidney and liver and should not just be given without a need to have it. Breeding or lactacting bitches should also not have it. Adequan also messes with the dogs ability to properly blood clot. Some dogs are allergic to it and can even go in to a comma. 

  Sorry, but you say you give all your dogs Adequan!

and so everyone has his opinion about what to do and what not, but i can understand the reasons of blitzen and steve if you breed a litter no matter if they stay as pets or anthing else x-ray's of those dogs will give you a much wider picture of your breeding results
nobody's forcing anybody to do so but it can help other breeders deside to use one of your males over an other if you can proof your dog's are healthy and not just that stud but also his littermates/relatives
or in the future yourself so you don't get any surprises if by chance your breeding male/female turns out to be good but he's untested littermates all have a certain degree of HD/ED a you never knowing it untill after you already used that male several times.
but everybody is free in what kind of tests they perform and howmany dog's they test, to me it's up to potential buyers/breeders to deside if they think a certain breeder has done enough testing
if i don't think sufficient has been done i don't get a puppy/dog from that breeder
a studmale i will never use if i don't have info about his littermates

kyto
Okay
So where does the normal Guy like me stand in this matter. I have taken my dogs over the years to different places i.e; Germany, Belgium and Holland for there joint x-rays the Dutch Vet says he does around 300 dogs a year for there joints. Now each time the joints of my dogs over the years have come back a1 normal and the ones who looked at them have stamped the Pedigree etc; So after all this what you are saying is that NOT me or anyone else can take what the experts have given us as the truth.
YET you cannot take them anywhere else again and have them done a second time. So 1000,s of dogs in Holland Germany and Belgium who,s joints were passed okay are now suspect on what you have said?
But If YOU yourself look at the self same joints or x-rays and you say to me Yes, the Joints are okay they are a1 normal, then you expect me or others to believe in only what you tell them? 

Steve1
The only thing is if you bought a Pup from me I would give you a copy of the Pedigrees with the Joints certified on them just the same as i have myself and that is all. You expect your word to be taken as truthful but you do not accept anyone elses.

Jenni
I was not exactly referring to any one person when i said Joints should be done as a matter of fact. I am not talking about Pet Dogs but Dogs which do a job of work; and you and others who differ from my way can continue to do it? for me if a dog is running jumping and facing the rigors of a Helper then YES? that dog needs to be health checked as soon as it able to be done it is only fair to the animal and this applies to other dogs who,s joints take a lot of wear, for if you find its joints are suspect then why force that dog to do work which may injure it. However i am not a breeder up to now, but when i do breed my female the first 5 pups go out free Gratis. i will not do it for making money in that i have no interest at all? and i am but a pensioner who,s cash comes over monthly from the UK and they give nothing away

↵All this is great conversation, but I am more interested in what people
'see' when they don't see something   I find it hard to believe in this day and age that people would fall for some slickster that claims to have  xrayed a breeding dog and in fact hasn't, but I suppose it happens, these
slicksters tend to be con artists so can sometimes talk those into actually believing their hype about how superior their untested & non xrayed dogs are. I think the only thing worse than the con job some pull, is the ones that 
actually do xray, find out the dog has bad hips or elbows, and breeds it  anyway! This all goes back to 'missing info', like a 1+ year old dog not having
elbows done, but hips are OFA or 'A stamped'. Surely that has to make even
the greenest of newbies stop and think doesn't it? I would hope it would.

And yes, I'm sure if one looks hard enough they can find exceptions to every 
rule, but to say an xray 'lies' is more than a stretch. One will always justify 
breeding a dog with bad joints if that is what they choose to do. With as many
quality dogs in this country and others, I find it impossible to believe that the
'exception' is just so damn exceptional it needs to be bred, even with bad joints.
Would you build a house on top of a swamp just because some fill was dumped 
on it and it looked great? I highly doubt it. With the large number of great quality
dogs we have available in this country and others, why on earth would you breed
to a dog with bad joints? Kennel blindness and ignorance at it's highest level!
 
If one looks around, you will be able to find dogs with bad hips or elbows still
being worked anywhere, and that's great, but again, doesn't deem them breedworthy.
Some dogs are seemingly impervious to pain. Dogs with missing teeth, overbites and 
underbites can also bite well, nice strong grips etc, so why not breed them? Same goes
for missing testicles and floppy ears? What the hell, why not right? I really think that
someone that would breed a dog with bad joints isn't much different than those that
​breed for super size, rare color etc.  So, back to the topic, what do people 'see' when
they don't 'see' certain things in a breeding dog. Perfect example, dog is 'OFA Good', 
but no elbow xrays? Doesn't that make you wonder why? Sure makes me...


 

Steve, 
In our country it's not uncommon for people to 'claim' a dog has 
great joints, even claim it's OFA'd. People need to verify this info
for themselves, OFA certificates have been faked. This is the beauty
of the searchable database on OFA. Same goes for 'a stamp'. One
can indeed verify a dogs joints have been certified. And they need to
with the way people try to run cons in the dog world! 


By the way Steve, this made me laugh my @ss off:

that made me smile which is a rare thing so that is good;  well at least some do Table Training then, so that is a start in the right direction

It depends. I see that this is in the GSD section - for a GSD, I would want to see everything certified. I only really get "red flags" when I check OFA and I see elbow results but not hip results. For other breeds, it depends. A working collie or sheltie? Very low incidence of hip or elbow dysplasia, and I wouldn't get too crazy worrying about it. I might ask them if they would be willing to get the dog OFA'ed. Maybe I could pay them to do it...because finding a working collie (not border collie) or sheltie is hard ENOUGH.

For a PET, like my spayed female collie, in which there is no reputable breeder out there eagerly awaiting her hip and elbow x-ray results to make more informed breeding decisions....and who is not involved in anything strenuous....no, she will not be x-rayed.