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by Jenni78 on 15 July 2013 - 18:07
Yikes, mollyandjack!!!
I am not going to xray my pets for no good reason. There is not one of us walking the planet who would score perfectly on a full body xray. When you start letting diagnostics dictate life as opposed to using diagnostics as a key to understanding symptoms and problems, imo, you're missing the boat and inviting trouble. Keeping in shape is the best thing you can do for a dog, whether dysplastic or not. Anyone ever seen a super athletic dog w/horrendous hips? I sure have. How come dysplastic working dogs who have a ton of exercise and good food are sound into middle and later years, while the neighbor's moderately dysplastic dog can barely make it up the front porch steps or up onto the couch at 3 years old? Exercise. Muscle. Overall health and fitness. "Use it or lose it" is my motto for ALL my dogs, pets or not.
If I wouldn't let a dog with mildly dysplastic hips do something, then I wouldn't let my other pets do it, either. That's common sense and you don't need xrays to figure it out. Having xrayed clear joints isn't a free pass to do stupid things. Anyone who waits until a dog is diagnosed with a problem via xray to keep it slim, provide biologically appropriate food and supplements for long term health is already behind the 8 ball, imo, with regard to GSDNewbie's rebuttal to my post.
BTW, X-rays can and do lie. I would never condone limiting a symptom-less dog's activities based on an X-ray. I'll explain why if anyone wants to know. Have a weird story about that.
I am not going to xray my pets for no good reason. There is not one of us walking the planet who would score perfectly on a full body xray. When you start letting diagnostics dictate life as opposed to using diagnostics as a key to understanding symptoms and problems, imo, you're missing the boat and inviting trouble. Keeping in shape is the best thing you can do for a dog, whether dysplastic or not. Anyone ever seen a super athletic dog w/horrendous hips? I sure have. How come dysplastic working dogs who have a ton of exercise and good food are sound into middle and later years, while the neighbor's moderately dysplastic dog can barely make it up the front porch steps or up onto the couch at 3 years old? Exercise. Muscle. Overall health and fitness. "Use it or lose it" is my motto for ALL my dogs, pets or not.
If I wouldn't let a dog with mildly dysplastic hips do something, then I wouldn't let my other pets do it, either. That's common sense and you don't need xrays to figure it out. Having xrayed clear joints isn't a free pass to do stupid things. Anyone who waits until a dog is diagnosed with a problem via xray to keep it slim, provide biologically appropriate food and supplements for long term health is already behind the 8 ball, imo, with regard to GSDNewbie's rebuttal to my post.
BTW, X-rays can and do lie. I would never condone limiting a symptom-less dog's activities based on an X-ray. I'll explain why if anyone wants to know. Have a weird story about that.
by Blitzen on 15 July 2013 - 20:07
If you don't try to xray every pup from every litter, how is it possible to learn what a particular breeding has produced? Sibling evaluation is generally accepted as a valuable tool to help reduce the incidence of HD in susceptible breeds. Don't GSD breeders ask pet buyer to xray their dogs?
by Jenni78 on 15 July 2013 - 20:07
Who are you talking to and what entire litters?
by Blitzen on 15 July 2013 - 21:07
Not talking to anyone specific, it's a general question for anyone who doesn't think it's necessary to xray pets........how does a breeder know what a specific breeding produces if they don't try to xray every dog from EACH litter?
by vonissk on 15 July 2013 - 21:07
A million years ago when I first met Tina Barber, I was impressed with her LMX (littermate xray program) --I do talk to people about xraying their pups but most say they aren't even going to register their dog why do all that...............but I have decided the next breeding I do, which will be this first one on my own this go round--I am going to keep a very tight rein on them and that includes xraying because I need to see what I have done--I think it is very important Blitzen. I want this to be my foundation litter and I need that information.
OK now as far as elbows. When I took my boy in for his OFA/H---I wanted to get the elbows done--but the vet whom I loved and he worked with me was against it and didn't want to do it--with more choices maybe I would have gone to a different one but the only other one is very expensive and I'm not crazy about them..............Anyway............
Also one more thing I want to add regarding the part of Jenn's post about the exercise and all. When I first started in the breed, oneof the things was told by the show people was the reason they didn't want to add german blood-this is 1987 or so--was that because the german dogs were worked so hard it was hard to tell if they had dysplasia. Of course now we know you really can't tell. But that was pre OFA popularity............and I say the real need for it. Please don't flame me but Jenn knowing that thought and what you said about exercise which I definately agree with, seem to go hand in hand...............I am only adding to the discussion--I have no idea--I was very very new and gullible.
OK now as far as elbows. When I took my boy in for his OFA/H---I wanted to get the elbows done--but the vet whom I loved and he worked with me was against it and didn't want to do it--with more choices maybe I would have gone to a different one but the only other one is very expensive and I'm not crazy about them..............Anyway............
Also one more thing I want to add regarding the part of Jenn's post about the exercise and all. When I first started in the breed, oneof the things was told by the show people was the reason they didn't want to add german blood-this is 1987 or so--was that because the german dogs were worked so hard it was hard to tell if they had dysplasia. Of course now we know you really can't tell. But that was pre OFA popularity............and I say the real need for it. Please don't flame me but Jenn knowing that thought and what you said about exercise which I definately agree with, seem to go hand in hand...............I am only adding to the discussion--I have no idea--I was very very new and gullible.
by Jenni78 on 15 July 2013 - 21:07
They don't know.
I xray German Shepherds, but I don't xray my pets unless there's a reason. I try to have every pup xrayed for that very reason you stated, but I have had a few people basically flat out refuse, saying they don't care, won't do anything different or think differently of the dog no matter what the xray states. What can I do? Put a gun to their heads? There are just a couple like this, so I can still get a pretty good idea, but it sure would be nice for completeness' sake.
One is a super nice, titled boy who I'd love to breed to, but he's over 3 and still not xrayed. Oh well. Maybe if I ever breed another litter, I'll have them pay up front for the OFAs out of the puppy price and have it held as a credit at the vet I use. Maybe they'd be more inspired if they felt like they were throwing money away.
I xray German Shepherds, but I don't xray my pets unless there's a reason. I try to have every pup xrayed for that very reason you stated, but I have had a few people basically flat out refuse, saying they don't care, won't do anything different or think differently of the dog no matter what the xray states. What can I do? Put a gun to their heads? There are just a couple like this, so I can still get a pretty good idea, but it sure would be nice for completeness' sake.
One is a super nice, titled boy who I'd love to breed to, but he's over 3 and still not xrayed. Oh well. Maybe if I ever breed another litter, I'll have them pay up front for the OFAs out of the puppy price and have it held as a credit at the vet I use. Maybe they'd be more inspired if they felt like they were throwing money away.
by hexe on 16 July 2013 - 00:07
"unnecessary radiation"
Really? From a set of hip and elbow films?
There's a huge divide between the amount of radiation a set of hip and elbow x-rays are going to expose a dog to, and the amount a Chernobyl clean-up worker was exposed to, for heaven's sake. If you took radiographs of a dog's hips and elbows every month from the time it was 12 months old until it died at a normal senior GSD age, you'd be hard pressed to see any deleterious effects on the dog from the procedures.
Why does it matter when it comes to non-breeding prospects and pets? Well, for one thing, there's a significant difference between a stud dog who's rated OFA excellent, but the none of his littermates were sound, and a stud that got an NZ rating but every other dog in the litter got a passing grade as well. Ditto for brood bitches. You can't know that kind of stuff if the only animals that get evaluated are the ones that are going to be bred. I had my now 4 yr old bitch done when I had her spayed last year, because it matters to me that breeders be able to have as much data as possible when they're making their selections. It wasn't going to change anything I was doing with my dog either way.
Would I/have I restricted the activities of a dog upon learning that the hips weren't sound? No. What I have/will do for such a dog is ensure that the dog gets plenty of joint-sparing exercise, such as swimming, to help keep the musculature well-toned, which in turn will provide better support for the affected joints...in addition to having the dog take part in whatever activities I'd let a fully sound dog enjoy if the dog enjoys it as well. Because I'll know there is abnormal construction of the joints, I'll make earlier use of chondroproctectives for the unsound dog, such as Adequan injections, to do whatever is medically possible to slow down the degenerative process. Without the information the x-rays supply, I wouldn't be able to do any of those things, which might hasten the effects of the structural defect.
For those who say x-rays 'lie,' because they can point to animals [or human athletes] who perform outstandingly in a variety of physical activities despite the fact that their radiographs would suggest they couldn't do so without pain, that doesn't mean the images 'lied'. It simply means that the particular specimen of animal or human is/was able to function beyond that which would ordinarily limit the majority of their type, because an abnormal structure is an abnormal structure. That you can make an abnormal structure function adequately doesn't make it a normal structure.
Really? From a set of hip and elbow films?
There's a huge divide between the amount of radiation a set of hip and elbow x-rays are going to expose a dog to, and the amount a Chernobyl clean-up worker was exposed to, for heaven's sake. If you took radiographs of a dog's hips and elbows every month from the time it was 12 months old until it died at a normal senior GSD age, you'd be hard pressed to see any deleterious effects on the dog from the procedures.
Why does it matter when it comes to non-breeding prospects and pets? Well, for one thing, there's a significant difference between a stud dog who's rated OFA excellent, but the none of his littermates were sound, and a stud that got an NZ rating but every other dog in the litter got a passing grade as well. Ditto for brood bitches. You can't know that kind of stuff if the only animals that get evaluated are the ones that are going to be bred. I had my now 4 yr old bitch done when I had her spayed last year, because it matters to me that breeders be able to have as much data as possible when they're making their selections. It wasn't going to change anything I was doing with my dog either way.
Would I/have I restricted the activities of a dog upon learning that the hips weren't sound? No. What I have/will do for such a dog is ensure that the dog gets plenty of joint-sparing exercise, such as swimming, to help keep the musculature well-toned, which in turn will provide better support for the affected joints...in addition to having the dog take part in whatever activities I'd let a fully sound dog enjoy if the dog enjoys it as well. Because I'll know there is abnormal construction of the joints, I'll make earlier use of chondroproctectives for the unsound dog, such as Adequan injections, to do whatever is medically possible to slow down the degenerative process. Without the information the x-rays supply, I wouldn't be able to do any of those things, which might hasten the effects of the structural defect.
For those who say x-rays 'lie,' because they can point to animals [or human athletes] who perform outstandingly in a variety of physical activities despite the fact that their radiographs would suggest they couldn't do so without pain, that doesn't mean the images 'lied'. It simply means that the particular specimen of animal or human is/was able to function beyond that which would ordinarily limit the majority of their type, because an abnormal structure is an abnormal structure. That you can make an abnormal structure function adequately doesn't make it a normal structure.
by steve1 on 16 July 2013 - 03:07
Yes Hexe
the words Unecessary Radiation made me laugh out loud. it is amazing of what excuses some folk think up just to not do these basic health checks on there Dogs. Personally i think most are frightened of burning there fingers as they take the Cash out of the Wallet to pay for the health checks that is more to the truth
Steve1
the words Unecessary Radiation made me laugh out loud. it is amazing of what excuses some folk think up just to not do these basic health checks on there Dogs. Personally i think most are frightened of burning there fingers as they take the Cash out of the Wallet to pay for the health checks that is more to the truth
Steve1
by kyto on 16 July 2013 - 04:07
i always ask to see the pics of hips,elbows and spine, i never go by certifications i need to see the actual pics. and for a while now i've been thinking about asking those pics even from female's when they come to be mated by idefix.
certifications don't mean anything to me, a copy of pics from idefix is always availeble for the breeders who have used him
especially spine pics interest me these day's, because it shows what kind of breeder that person is
certifications don't mean anything to me, a copy of pics from idefix is always availeble for the breeders who have used him
especially spine pics interest me these day's, because it shows what kind of breeder that person is
by steve1 on 16 July 2013 - 05:07
Kyto
You say you do not trust certification, and want to see the X-Rays yourself. Well , why are you so much more of an expert than the Proffessers who study the Joints and give there Opinion and then Stamp the Pedigree of the Dog with the grading. Leastways that is how it is done over here in Europe, Because the way you talk is the experts do not know what they are doing but you yourself is more expert at grading joints than they are, That really is arrogant,
If i was selling a Puppy and you asked me that question you would have been sent off with a Flea in your ear or more like Bells Ringing.
Steve1
You say you do not trust certification, and want to see the X-Rays yourself. Well , why are you so much more of an expert than the Proffessers who study the Joints and give there Opinion and then Stamp the Pedigree of the Dog with the grading. Leastways that is how it is done over here in Europe, Because the way you talk is the experts do not know what they are doing but you yourself is more expert at grading joints than they are, That really is arrogant,
If i was selling a Puppy and you asked me that question you would have been sent off with a Flea in your ear or more like Bells Ringing.
Steve1
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