Discernment - Page 3

Joan, I believe I offered this as an explanation using my experience, in my second post above,

For example, my Mojo opens gates. Beau is clueless. I have watched Mojo see how clueless Beau is, and actually opened the gate for him. I call that discernment, and would never have happened if he spent most of his time in a crate.
 

Perhaps I left out the part that Mojo would surely be considered a poorly thought out breeding, and therefore an excellent example of the trait for "discernment" to be more common, than perhaps stated by some of the more valued opinions of the PDB respected?

I used the above opinion to further my POV because I didn't want to plagiarize, and it explained my thinking in a manner with which I agreed. I also learned 15% of Seeing Eye Dogs Internationally are GSD's. They are still around but not the in-demand dog. There are reasons for that, and it would not be limited to the idea of not breeding for "discernment". IMHO

And maybe lack of discernment in today's GSD IS the reason they are not used as much as in the past.
I still don't understand how opening a gate is an example of discernment. I'm not saying it isn't, I just don't know that it would be a trait I'd pick to breed for. I have a bitch who has produced three pups from two different sire's, who don't bother opening gates to get out....they simply climb any fence they are put behind. Since they are the only dogs I have who do that, and out of the same female, I'd say it is genetic. But not a trait I deliberately breed for. If I am in the same enclosure, they don't climb out. It's only to get out and join me. These dogs don't exhibit separation anxiety, they just are very determined to join in what ever I'm doing. But I sure don't label that discernment...I label it APITA. LOL.

Joan, he helped the other dog to follow? Learning how to manipulate a gate, both ways, that is sold as toddler proof? That is not what every dog will, or can do? That could also be handy for survival? Helping the other's in the pack to stay together? I know it is maybe an out-of-the-box type of thinking. But it illustrates what others on this thread are calling a "thinking" dog. I think discernment and thinking go hand-in-hand and are good qualities to breed for, if I was breeder, but we all know I am not.

 

Joan, opening gates indicates the ability to problem solve, which IMO is an important part of discernment.

[OT] We had a cat that could problem solve. He watched very carefully as we were opening and closing the door to my grandma's little one room apartment. He was a high-energy cat and wanted to be able to roam the whole house. First he tried to get a grip on the knob, but without opposable thumbs that was a non-starter. Then, he found out if he lay on his back and hooked his paw under the bottom of the door, it would pop open. It was very interesting watching him figure this out, though it would have made life easier if he hadn't. [/OT]

Oh, yeah, I also know a Shiloh that has learned to use the garage door opener!  The owner had to relocate the switch to a spot where the dog couldn't reach it!

Ok, as long as they don't get the combinations for the different locks mixed up. So far, my dogs haven't mastered the master lock on the front gate, or the trigger snap that prevents them from flipping open the the gate latches. For now, I've got my discerning dogs under control and out of the street. ;-)

Merely for the lack of opposable thumbs, Joan, otherwise we'd all be in trouble. The e-collar/fence keeps my discerning and not so discerning dog(s) out of the road. Unless I use a low-tech bungie cord, however, Mojo has proven to be able to provide his own access in and out, to the pool. Beau is at the mercy of Mojo, then, when that happens.

Thinking and desicion making are not the same as a dog going against training and rules out of instinct. I have tried to come up with a way to better voice what I am trying to get across in this thread while I was at physical therapy this morning after reading responding right before leaveing and I have come up with.... The dogs stopping before the thin ice is self preservation. The dog that stops the horse from attacking owner is protection. Instinct does not overcome ingrained traits but I do not consider this the discernment we are discussing. I consider these mentionings the same as a horse not wanting to go through fire as a matter of self preservation, but we are able to condition them to do so either for entertainment or in past combat scenarios and for pd patrol horses. What I consider discernment is the ability to see a problem, stop and logically look at said problem, and then take the inititive to find a solution and do said solution on it's own thinking and abilities. 

As a puppy my Ulf would want somthing one of the adult gsds had that he was given and did not want to challange a full grown adult dog yet he has a very strong sense of right and wrong and it is his. He would sit look at the situation and weigh options. You could watch the thought process happen. He then determined a solution to get the results he wanted to happen while avoiding conflict. Simple solution run down the stairs, bark at the door that something needs attention of the dogs and divert them to their instinctive duty of gaurding the home. I watched him figure this out, put it into action and accomplish the solution. The adults would run to the door and begin barking and he would run back up the stairs while their attention was refocussed and retrieve his item. This is discerment IMo. The sad part, is none of the other dogs ever caught on and thus is why I say they are incapable of discernment. I say that ignoring a command to protect me is not the same thing,  because both of those dogs would have done the same and run into a stall against training to save me. When Ulf arrived he was not purchased to be my service dog. He took initiative to take on that responsibility at a young age on his own. My pancreas does not funtion as part of my injuries and he began snapping at my mouth at the age of 12 weeks old every once in a while. We did not connect the dots until he was approx 5 months old and one day I was to sleepy to respond/ sugars low, remember at this time we did not understand why he was behaving in this fashion in previous outbursts, he went to another part of the house to my husband and insisted he not be ignored including growling and spinning, which was unusual for him to leave the room I was in in itself, so hubby listened. there are many more instances of his thought process that back up this amazing ability and I have never experienced anything like it either in my other gsds or other breeds and I have had some awesome dogs with tight working bonds through SAR. If I am in a crowd and someone has low sugars he will insist I say something to them and tell them. I have other stories, but prefer not to go into detail as it pertains to my health and I am not comfortable discussing more than I have on that subject at this time. When he was eight months old we were at a park and dogs were everywhere. A young girl came into the park with her parents and froze scared of the dogs. This place was leash optional so we were off lead playing frisbee. Ulf love children and approched her as he was coming back with his frisbee. The girl flinched and he understood she was afraid. He chose to lay with his head on her left foot quietly. I went and sat on a bench and the next half hour gave me the most inspirational moments at work I have wittnessed. He stayed down on her foot, he waited for her to make a move. He did not want her afraid and wanted to help her. This is the dog he is, and is the epitomy of discernment IMO. After a while she had to be talking to him in whisper because his ear was swiveling, but still he did not move his body. Soon I saw some fingertips reach for those ears, he laid still as could be. This is a 8 month old pup folks, full of energy laying patiently to help someone and controlling himself on his own thought process. She began petting his head, bending down a little. He picked up the frisbee from his paws and placed it in front of her without getting up and then looked at her in the face grinning tongue lolling. She accepted the invitation, and began playing with him. To me these actions are discernment and reminescent of the breed I fell in love with in the 70's as a kid. 

 I do feel gsds are loosing this and it was why they were special. I knew of two gsds that had some of these qualities and abilities as a kid. This quality is why guide began with gsds. It is not protective nature as to why they are not used as much now IMO. I think it is because on the whole they are unable to have the amount of lay around patience until they are much older and that they are maturing later than they used to in the mind now and they have lost the quality they once held that made them the best at service work. They have been being bred for biddabilty and flash more than preserving what made them a gsd that was held in such high regard IMO. 

  This subject is dear to me and I hope I have been able to communicate my thoughts on it sufficiently as communication has never been my strong suit and latly it has become even harder for me. 

All my dogs always want to be with me. Hmm. I find that to be common if one is that kind of dog person, to a dog. I don't call that discernment, just a good bond with a dog.

It is the smarts of the GSD that always appealed to me about this breed, something observed in my first GSD's back in the 70's. Mojo's so smart, he plays mind games, like Newbie's pup did with the big dogs. It is part of his character same as that first GSD of mine. So, sorry if I still don't think the GSD's have become less discerning. More likely, the clients are less dog savvy.