Discernment - Page 2

Everything you described, other than opening the gate, are survival instincts. That is something a dog is born with. The dog may have more opportunity to display it not ever crated, but if the trait is not already present, doesn't matter if the dog free on the streets, he'll still end up dead.
Speaking of dogs and streets, Key Largo in the fifties and sixties had one, two lane road, US1, connecting it with the rest of the world. My brothers and I would cross that hwy frequently. Too young to know about traffic, we were kept in check when cars were coming by our mongrel dog, Puppy. He would get in front of us and prevent us from crossing, til the car passed. That was the dog,not training.
I would remind Bee, this is a discussion about discernment being 'bred out of the Gsd", due to lack of need for it in present uses of the breed; not the trait is absent because of crating and kenneling.
I'm also not saying that excessive crating and kenneling is not detrimental to a dog's overall development.

Joan, 
I think I can be allowed a reason why the trait is not being as "bred out" as much as claimed? I should be allowed the opportunity to be incorrect as well as maybe, disagree with a posts premise? I have that discernment. IMHO  

My 3 year old gsd thankfully has strong discernment and is used 24/7 as my service dog. Not going fully in to my medical issues I will state he needs to be able to judge and think on his own at times and to assess situations for himself and he does an excellent job of it. My other male is the kind that he has to be told everything to do or he is in anxiety if asked to think for himself. I have often wondered since he came to me late in life if it was trained out of him to think on his own because he acts like he is trying to fight the urge to think on his own and just look for cues at times. My female was also good at thinking and I raised her with mind puzzles to bring that out in her though she did not hold a candle to the ability my 3 year old possesses in this area. As a puppy he would often figure out what would be the best solution or what would achieve the goals he wanted to happen. You could see the thoughts in his expression and watch him put it into action. I have never experienced the level of forethought he exhibits in a dog before and can only hope to see it again in a future dog. 

One of my favourite dogs is a Shiloh Shepherd service dog named Mali. Her intelligence is mind-boggling. Just one example of many: she and her owner were walking down the street, and an elderly lady was passing by. Mali somehow knew the lady was about to lose her balance, and moved away from her owner to enable the woman to use her as a support (she was wearing a special harness for this exact purpose, as her owner has limited mobility.)

I asked her breeder, Tina Barber, what characteristics Mali showed as a pup which made her think she'd be a good service dog. Tina replied it was the pup's ability to problem-solve. This was evident even before she went to her new home at 8 weeks. At 7 weeks old, she figure out if she jumped up on top of the stack of cartons containing frozen chicken wings, she could have the whole carton to herself!

My German Shepherd was trained to stay out of the horses stalls for safety reasons so she would just sit outside each stall I was cleaning, she never attempted to enter while I was in there, one day I tripped and fell in the stall of an aggressive gelding and he turned and charged me as I was getting up, Maddie my dog immediately rushed in and deflected the attack to her and took a nice bite to the horses face, I was happily surprised she showed discernment to her training, and by the way, she was a beautiful German Showline with nerves of steel. she loved to herd the horses and God help them if they didn't load into the trailer quickly enough for her, God I miss that dog!!!  :(

The line in the sand is where does instinct end and discernment begin.  I think in humans we would call it having common sense (or not)?

Bee, you certainly do have all those rights...I never implied you didn't. Discussion is good, and different view points from experiences are what discussions are generally built around....doesn't mean we have to agree.

Gustav, when I was a kid, I remember reading a book about the very first Seeing Eye dogs. The trainer was asked why the GSD was the best breed for the job, and he responded, "If a German shepherd came up to the edge of an excavation in the sidewalk, and its handler told it to go forward, it would refuse, and even block the blind person from going, if they tried to do it without the dog. If the dog were a standard poodle, it would just jump down into the excavation!"

That's why it frosts my butt so much to see other breeds have taken over this very very important job. And like you said, it's mainly due to the GSD lacking this all-important trait. Yes, the public's perception of the GSD as a guard dog an police dog plays a role too, but I know you have friends who train dogs for the blind, and they know most GSDs just can't do the job anymore. 

Sad, very sad.

 

I think I would agree more with this person's point of view, myself:
 

German Shepherds are more difficult for the average person to handle. They think too fast. They are not suited for first-time dog owners or for those lacking confidence with dogs. They require more mental stimulation than the typical lab or golden and without that stimulation can develop problem behaviors. They are problem solvers, which is a two-edged sword: they make choices and act to fill in gaps in their own training, but when bored they start figuring out things you'd rather they didn't, like deadbolts, childproof locks, and appliances.

When the Seeing Eye first opened, they used GSDs exclusively, but they also had owners training much more extensively at the school with their dogs. And only the most determined applied.

A friend of mine, a GSD breeder, had a conversation with a trainer at the Seeing Eye once, and asked him why they weren't using more GSDs. He said it was because their average client couldn't handle them. Let's say a team is at an intersection and have a near miss. The GSD is likely to shove into his handler to get him out of the way, knocking him down in the process. A lab is likely to stand still and hope for the best. The average person would rather stay standing than be knocked down. Personally, I'd rather get the shove.

There are still GSDs in use as guide dogs. The Seeing Eye, Guiding Eyes for the Blind, and Fidelco all train GSDs.

Source(s):

I'm a service dog trainer and GSD owner.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090118123801AATRK2Q

More than who's point of view, Gustav's and sun silver's, for example. Bee, you're talking about one very specialized use of a dog, rather than the overall dog. Not many people on this forum have trained seeing eye dogs, but most have had every day, normal interaction with their dog. So, now we have the SE trainer's opinion about the use of GSD over LAb for that job, but what does his explanation have to do with "today's Improved" GSDs' lack of discernment?

I'm not disputing you, Bee, I'm simply asking for your explanation from your experience.