Discernment - Page 19

ROFLMAO!! Too, Too funny Ziegenfarm. Sunny, ROFL @ the moving into the shade on the long down. My male, Body, has done that a time or two during training. But getting up and moving to the spring fed creek only twenty feet away for his down was always his favorite move, LOL.
The thinking dogs are just playing along, to make us feel good about our training prowess, all the while thinking, poor humans ;-(

well, i've always said, "we don't teach a dog a damn thing that they don't do naturally."  we just pride ourselves on telling them when to do it
and, yup, sometimes the dog outsmarts us & reminds us that we are on the dumb end of the leash :)
pjp

The thinking dogs are just playing along, to make us feel good about our training prowess, all the while thinking, poor humans ;-(
So true so true Joan. I always call it "being played".............LOL............

Anyone read this?

http://www.amazon.com/The-Other-End-Leash-Around/dp/034544678X

My dog was not bred for sport or show but by a family with many children that has one litter a year.  I looked for this specifically and it was difficult to find a well bred dog that was not show or sport.  His job is to 'take care of things'; a job that is constantly changing and that requires great discernment.  In my experience, the GSD is the only dog capable of this mental agility.  But discernment is a learning process as well as breeding and instinct.   Experience is the key.  He is now almost 6 as knows all the facets of his job.  The next pup will be easier to train as this dog will pass on some of his knowledge of the farm and how it works.  I agree with others who say they are so smart you must stay ahead of them at all times, especially that first year or two when they are so full of energy and curiosity. 
I'd like to say how much I appreciate all you GSD lovers and owners who understand this type of dog.  They are definitely NOT for everyone.  They need lots of room and action, lots of firm, gentle guidance and the readiness to use the heavy hand when needed.  I hope some breeders out there will continue to breed for outstanding intelligence and not superficial characteristics.

Alienor, you understand my fantasy world, it's amazing you and your dog are real....lol

 Gustav....Real!

'Herding' chickens.... lol !
. 

I enjoyed reading this thread.  Bump. :)

Such a cool thread.

Thanks Gustav, and bravo22 for the bump.

I am only 29, so I have no experience of any old days, but as I have posted before I have my one shepherd, Max who is 2.5 yrs old now. He was not a rescue, but I got him from an awful breeder who had completely uncertified or tested in any regard parents. He was a mangey, wormy and pretty feral 9 week old pup (young, I know). He happened to come from a line of police dogs, and he is only 2 or 3 generations from the '80's.

Discernment is the perfect word and it is exactly what makes him remarkable, I will share a few stories. Thus far I have just called it his temperament.

We were at training on saturday, and we were working on bite transferring, and multiple attacker situations, muzzled and otherwise, and taking bites up a platform (guys were climbing a fence, and he had to climb up some rickety wooden platform and bite the guy coming over). There is another dog in his class. So we were taking turns. There was a man watching us train with his 2 young children, maybe 2 and 4 years old. Between sets the kids would come and play with Max, even the little 2 year old girl that was tentative at first was touching him all over before long. Even in a situation where all his drives are firing, he could easily discern what action was appropriate. So he was just gentle and patient with the kids, with his normal aloofness. In our previous IPO club there were only 1 or 2 dogs that you could touch and I would not touch any of the dogs in his current personal protection classes. Conversely any handler or helper can touch Max.

My mother flew down to come and visit me. She had recently had a double hip replacement and she was still a bit frail. On the saturday afternoon, my friends came over to watch some rugby. Max didnt show any aggression or anything, but he always kept himself between my mother and my friends. He would just stand in front of her with with his body sideways so they could greet her and shake her had but not come any closer. He was probably one at the time. He did the exact same thing with me when I was visiting a woman I was seeing. There was another guy there, who had reason to feel animosity to me. Max just kept the side of his body pressing this guy away from. Would not let him near me. He has never done this otherwise. He probably felt my mothers frailty, and possibly that this guy was not terribly fond of me.

There have been three people in his life he has responded to very violently, a builder, a delivery man and one guy we went by on a walk. And I remember all three well, because I trust him and why wouldn't I. I walked outside my house the other day, he was lying at the gate on his back and a beggar (whatever you call them in your countries) had his hand through the gate stroking Max's belly. This is untrained discernment.

Personally I feel like he makes decisions with far more information than me. He can smell/feel peoples emotions, motivations and he somehow has the confidence and nerve to act appropriately. Sometimes you can see he is unsure of what is appropriate, and you can see this when he encounters a person that exhibits something he has not experienced before. He will smell and stare until he feels he has enough information and then react accordingly. He will ask questions first with people and shoot later.

With dogs he shoots first and asks questions later. Dogs have bitten him, people haven't. We were up the mountain, it was duskish, so just getting dark quite quickly. A black staffordshire terrier, came running down the mountain path. It had left its owner trailing. Max saw/heard/smelled it way before me. When I looked up and realised what was going on I saw him run full speed into this dog and knock it flat fifty yards up the path. There was a tiny scuffle and as soon as he realised it was just a dog and not a threat, about 2 secs after he ran into it, he got off it came back. He did not bite it, he was just investigating. The staffie had no interest in continuing the disagreement. I know this could have gone badly, but it didn't and it shows his thought process and that there is a very distinctive thought process and it has nothing to do with aggression or training.

We have trained on a field next to a group of children playing soccer. He would never chase a child, he would chase the ball all day though... There are so many times he has surprised me being better than I had any right to anticipate, he has taught me much about how best to react to some situations. Ironically, GSD federation here still would never register him or let him breed.

Someone asked earlier whether or not dogs have a subconscious mind, I just read 10 pages of thread, I cant remember where, I think they absolutely do. I've seen them dreaming far too often to think anything else.
 

I wish I had seen this thread earlier, but I will share some of Kali's stories that Im sure you have heard before, because she had discernment. As a young pup she intercepted a man who was reaching for my granddaughter, she merely raised her head & her lip, growled very softly as she popped up in between his reaching hand & my granddaughters head. That was all it took. She stayed to make sure, with my granddaughter hanging happily on her neck. She never even jostled the baby. No bite needed. If he had not with drawn his hand, he would have been bitten, no doubt.
When my son-in-law came home to his house drunk & angry,  when we were visiting, she put herself between him & his family& stood up & snarled in his face, on a loose leash, until he backed off , then sat next to my granddaughter & let her put her arms around Kali's neck. Again she was gentle but watchful. If he had crossed her line, she would have reacted differently. And now her son guards their home, with as much discernment as his d possessed!