Discernment - Page 18

That's very true, Koach. Good point. But genetics also plays a big role in determining temperament. As Gustav has pointed out, back in those days, many dogs were tied up pretty much all the time. If the dog had good temperament, it could stil perform as a herding dog or even a police dog.

Same thing with puppy mill dogs. Some are basket cases that will never recover from the situation they were born into. Those with innate good character and nerves can make good pets with very little socialization.

Here's the way my male GSD spent most of the first 3 years of his life:



He went from an isolated rural setting (cottage on the edge of a lake) to a large town north of Toronto. He adjusted just fine to the transition (crowds, noise, traffic.) Until his retirement 2 years ago, he served as my hearing ear service dog, and I took him everywhere.  He's great with kids and other dogs, and is much better with my cat than my female GSD (Star).

The success I had with him is the reason I decided to adopt Gracie.

Koaches scenario sounds a bit like http://www.amazon.com/The-Story-Edgar-Sawtelle-Novel/dp/0061374237  the breeder was very specific with their breeding program.
I do believe  too much coddling isn't good for  a pup, they need to learn to be independent, confident though still handler sensitive and biddable.  That is mostly genetics.
 I want my puppy to be with me, because I enjoy the pup, and pup isn't a piece of equipment
but my partner.  So I could be inhibiting the genetic discernment with my influence?

I wouldnt say that has changed so much. vonissk unless ive gotten real lucky. for ex:   I had a rescue gsd that was a very civil ppd. that loved children. and every kid in my neighborhood would stop by when he was out in my back yard. but let an adult that wasnt my neighbor or hadnt been in my home reach over the fence and they were met with teeth. I remember telling my friend that a sweet woman or child could walk in my house and take everything i owned and he would show them where all his stuff was too and try to go with them.

however i feel like while he was alive he taught my other dogs this same trait. as well as being the fun police and a manager of the dogs. I feel like he taught my other gsd's a lot of their behaviors. hierarchy amongst themselves, confidence, discrimination of threats, territoriality, on and off switches, appropriate behaviors, etc......   not to say alot wasnt done through training but he did a lot of teaching, watching, and thinking. He also helped train client pet dogs and fosters not just my resident dogs a lot about appropriate interaction with people and animals as well as behaviors around the home and property.
I have always felt dogs learn a lot from each other.

The only one of my dogs that wasnt that way was my mali. (dont start a gsd - mali war plz) however i never trusted her with children or adult alike except when i was right there. She didnt discriminate at all. if it wasnt me or i wasnt right there she would engage any person as threat around the home even repeat visitors. 

Off Topic:
But speaking of taking a neighbors dog for a stroll:  

you know i remember when i was growing up(and im not that old haha) if a kid or anyone was bitten by a dog,  the kid was asked what did you do to the dog.  
now its you have a vicious dog that needs to get put down and the dog did it unprovoked. 
how much have things changed indeed.

 

well vonissk i would never compare him to an "old time" dog as i wasnt around 60 years ago.

however his presence was known by human and dog alike. and adored or revered by both.

he had real problem solving ability in any situation. Which in my eyes was a blessing and a curse. ever been told you have to be smarter than what your working with. well he demonstrated that a lot in training. i constantly had to out think him.

however between learning how to get out of kennel. learning how to work gait in yard. learning how to complete many tasks with problem solving and observation. shoot even one day we had a decoy run behind a lifted truck and he was the only dog that took the surprise approach of going under the truck to engage the decoy by surprise so he didnt have to face the direct spray of water hose.(he had watched 2,  k9's previous to going in)

however interesting video and study:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/pets/7813988/Dogs-too-reliant-on-humans-to-think-for-themselves.html

not sure where the study on nat geo i saw and was looking for is. however this speaks of that study of dogs vs wolves problem solving ability.

I didnt necessarily agree with the study as the show/documentary only used one wolf and 1 dog. not a pool of each to establish a baseline of each side.
however the general science does make sense.

Vonissk, we're the same age! 

Some other things from 'back then'....

Farm dogs were allowed to run free: how else were they going to protect the property? They were only tied up or shut in the barn if their owners were away.
Only females were neutered.
I knew to ask permission to pet a dog, as not all dogs were friendly (nor were they expected to be!)
Dogs were allowed one bite before being declared vicious (my mom used the term 'cross dog'.)
Dogs thrived mostly on table scraps, and no one ever thought of separating out the cooked bones from the rest of the food. And you knew to NEVER bother a dog when it's eating!

There was no heart worm preventative in the old'n days either...... And dogs died from heart worms when they were only four years old. Cooked chicken bones and fish hooks did a number on them in those days, same as now.

geez, i can't believe i missed this thread.  9 pages to read to get caught up.  good discussion :)  i can't really add anything that hasn't already been said, but i will agree that discernment has definately fallen by the wayside.  since most dogs are being bred for sport & show these days, the last thing the handler wants is a dog who thinks for himself.  heck, the dog might decide the handler is nuts & walk off the field or out of the showring.  rofl.
pjp

 heck, the dog might decide the handler is nuts & walk off the field or out of the showring.  rofl.
pjp

   God help us if that were to happen, Ziegenfarm!  Though I have heard of a few dogs that decided the long down was better done in the shade, and proceeded to move themselves to a more comfortable spot....LOL!