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by susie on 07 March 2013 - 14:03
Your dog needs to learn in several steps.
At first you need to know HOW you want him to show that he found something
- Sitting in front of it
- Barking at it
- Something else
This behavior you can train without hiding the ball - good behavior = playtime.
Use always the same command for the ball "search" or "ball" - doesn´t really matter.
As soon as he knows the name for the ball , and he knows how to behave whenever there is a ball ( sit or bark) you can start to hide.
You shouldn´t show him where the ball is, help a littlebit, not too difficult in the beginning, always supported by "search" or "ball".
"Sit" or "bark" = reward.
Later on it´s easy to change smells, it´s all about the search command and the learned behavior.
Good luck!
At first you need to know HOW you want him to show that he found something
- Sitting in front of it
- Barking at it
- Something else
This behavior you can train without hiding the ball - good behavior = playtime.
Use always the same command for the ball "search" or "ball" - doesn´t really matter.
As soon as he knows the name for the ball , and he knows how to behave whenever there is a ball ( sit or bark) you can start to hide.
You shouldn´t show him where the ball is, help a littlebit, not too difficult in the beginning, always supported by "search" or "ball".
"Sit" or "bark" = reward.
Later on it´s easy to change smells, it´s all about the search command and the learned behavior.
Good luck!
by VKGSDs on 07 March 2013 - 14:03
Another thing, the AR methods train the dog to get through every barrier that they can, so the dog is indicating at or as close to the odor as possible since in some trials you have to pin-point closer than an inch. My dog will often sit or down on his own but those behaviors are not the indication, it's the focus/nose-touch at/on the source of the odor (so if my odor is in a container on the ground he will naturally platz and nose-touch, if it's a few feet up he will sit and nose-touch, etc). Just keep that in mind depending on how accurate your dog needs to be.
by Slamdunc on 07 March 2013 - 15:03
I realize the whole point is to teach the dog to associate the scent of the drug with the ball or toy. So I've begun hiding a scented ball under a box, and when he sniffs for it, I reward him by flipping the ball out to him. Problem is he is wayyyy too crazy for the ball to really sniff. He sees the ball go under the box and just goes nuts pawing at it and basically trying to destroy the box. I've tried keeping him on leash, but that hasn't helped.
Training a dog for detection of any substance is really not difficult. Training a passive alert i.e. the sit, platz, or stare or an active alert ie scratching, barking, etc is the trained response and not the actual alert or indication. For an experienced handler training a detection dog is not hard, for a novice or new handler working alone it is very difficult. One of the biggest issues is separating the odor from the toy in the way you have described and the ongoing proofing. As VKGSD's mentioned the separation is generally very quickly done. We do not use toys or balls to imprint the odor but the actual aid whether it is narcotics or explosive, or cadaver. We use a rolled towel with the target odor attached and when the dog is searching for the target odor we eliminate the towel. There are many ways to train this and they all work and get results.
My best advice, which you will not want to hear is to work with a skilled trainer initially. The time saved and training progression will be huge. Not having to unscrew up ( said nicely substitute unf&*^)or retrain your dog will be another huge advantage. I have seen, do see and still see handlers that have trained on their own and continually have problems by not laying a good and proper foundation. First off, setting out your own aids is a big problem. This is where handlers wind up cueing their dogs and causing those "false alerts." Helping the dog too much is another problem when a handler is always setting out aids by them self. The other problem is the dog reading your body language and just going to final response based on the handler's actions. These are the downsides of training or teaching yourself.
You will need to learn a search pattern and teach the dog how to work low to high like a M or W pattern. You will need to recognize the behavioral changes in the dog that is the ACTUAL alert or indication. Sitting, staring. scratching, nose to source are trained responses. The alert or indication happens way before the trained final response. You need to learn to recognize the change in breathing, the nostrils fluttering going from 30 respirations a minute to 100 - 150 when the dog is in odor. You need to learn the "Head Snap," the body changes, the ear and tail set changes etc. These are the indications that the dog is in odor. There are times when a dog can not physically go to it's trained response of sitting, downing or nose on source. My dog is an active or aggressive alerting dog, but when drugs are hidden in a ceiling 12 feet in the air in the center if a warehouse he can not get to the source of the odor and scratch. He will jump and bark. Perhaps the surface is too hot, or it is moving and the dog can not go to final response what will the dog do?
What you do in the first few weeks of training is critical, more so in detection work than any other area of training. That is why it is so crucial to work with an experienced trainer that has taken green dogs and trained them. The AKC has a new "scent work" sport with seminars and titles, that may be a good avenue to research. Training a dog on Marijuana is the easiest narcotic to train but of limited value, IMHO but detection work is fun. It's not like you will be called out by your local PD to assist them to find Marijuana.
Detection work is subtle and part science and part art. One thing is for sure when you can learn to read the dog you become a better handler. Tracking generally improves because of your enhanced ability to read subtle changes in the dog. One thing I would do if your dog is that crazy and frantic for his ball is switch to a lower value item to initially imprint the odor. I use a towel and even on the street a tug and never a ball or Kong. My dog is too intense for those toys and will not work as methodically as I want when searching and will only want his ball on a rope or Kong.
Training a dog for detection of any substance is really not difficult. Training a passive alert i.e. the sit, platz, or stare or an active alert ie scratching, barking, etc is the trained response and not the actual alert or indication. For an experienced handler training a detection dog is not hard, for a novice or new handler working alone it is very difficult. One of the biggest issues is separating the odor from the toy in the way you have described and the ongoing proofing. As VKGSD's mentioned the separation is generally very quickly done. We do not use toys or balls to imprint the odor but the actual aid whether it is narcotics or explosive, or cadaver. We use a rolled towel with the target odor attached and when the dog is searching for the target odor we eliminate the towel. There are many ways to train this and they all work and get results.
My best advice, which you will not want to hear is to work with a skilled trainer initially. The time saved and training progression will be huge. Not having to unscrew up ( said nicely substitute unf&*^)or retrain your dog will be another huge advantage. I have seen, do see and still see handlers that have trained on their own and continually have problems by not laying a good and proper foundation. First off, setting out your own aids is a big problem. This is where handlers wind up cueing their dogs and causing those "false alerts." Helping the dog too much is another problem when a handler is always setting out aids by them self. The other problem is the dog reading your body language and just going to final response based on the handler's actions. These are the downsides of training or teaching yourself.
You will need to learn a search pattern and teach the dog how to work low to high like a M or W pattern. You will need to recognize the behavioral changes in the dog that is the ACTUAL alert or indication. Sitting, staring. scratching, nose to source are trained responses. The alert or indication happens way before the trained final response. You need to learn to recognize the change in breathing, the nostrils fluttering going from 30 respirations a minute to 100 - 150 when the dog is in odor. You need to learn the "Head Snap," the body changes, the ear and tail set changes etc. These are the indications that the dog is in odor. There are times when a dog can not physically go to it's trained response of sitting, downing or nose on source. My dog is an active or aggressive alerting dog, but when drugs are hidden in a ceiling 12 feet in the air in the center if a warehouse he can not get to the source of the odor and scratch. He will jump and bark. Perhaps the surface is too hot, or it is moving and the dog can not go to final response what will the dog do?
What you do in the first few weeks of training is critical, more so in detection work than any other area of training. That is why it is so crucial to work with an experienced trainer that has taken green dogs and trained them. The AKC has a new "scent work" sport with seminars and titles, that may be a good avenue to research. Training a dog on Marijuana is the easiest narcotic to train but of limited value, IMHO but detection work is fun. It's not like you will be called out by your local PD to assist them to find Marijuana.
Detection work is subtle and part science and part art. One thing is for sure when you can learn to read the dog you become a better handler. Tracking generally improves because of your enhanced ability to read subtle changes in the dog. One thing I would do if your dog is that crazy and frantic for his ball is switch to a lower value item to initially imprint the odor. I use a towel and even on the street a tug and never a ball or Kong. My dog is too intense for those toys and will not work as methodically as I want when searching and will only want his ball on a rope or Kong.
by Not2old2lrn on 08 March 2013 - 00:03
This is the stuff I'm interested in too. (except the drug searching). I'm going to check into the Andrew Ramsey DVD as well. Is anyone familiar with the book; "Tracking from the ground up" by Sandy Ganz and Susan Boyd? It's a book I was going to order, and wonder if anyone has read it, and can recommend it. My boy Luke is doing well on tracking human scent. I ordered/read the book; "Training the Disaster Search Dog" by Shirley Hammond. I learned a lot, but I'm not going for that intensive type of "career" for Luke. I just want to be able to use his talents if someone locally gets lost in the woods. It does happen here. It's just not realistic for us to do more than that.
by Pirates Lair on 08 March 2013 - 07:03
minro-
With all due respect, Slam has patiently... given you the best advice you will find on this, or any other Forum pertaining to your post.
And.... he has Real Experience, and he has stayed on topic,.... which is rare ......in the world of Internet thugs and know it all's, who will not reveal their Real Name!
Everyone knows who Slam is......and he is one of the few knowledgeable people on this forum.
May I politely suggest that;
Unless you are involved in Law Enforcement, there is no reason to train your dog in Drug Detection!
In fact...it is Dangerous for both of you.
If you want to have fun with your dog and learn Scent Detection there are many groups/clubs doing this now (do a Google search) and they are experienced in scent detection.
- Herbal Scent Detection
It's fun, it's safe and .....it is still hard work.
And......it requires a "Great Bond" between Partners in order to be Successful!
You will need to learn about "scent cones" how environmental factors (wind,rain/heat) can effect your K9's search and alerts, and
why it is important to train your K9 with False/Negative hides/aids......and why you need to record them in your training logs.......
Define Odor? Defense Lawyers favorite question!
Odor- Is the detectable evidence (scent) of molecular migration from solids and liquids into the atmosphere
Alert- The "Alert" exhibited by K9 Jorja was consistent with past Alerts where Narcotics, or the the Odor of Narcotics has been present.
And it goes on and on....
Hope you continue to challenge your pup and yourself, remember...it is always about the dog!
Respectfully
Mr. Kim Moore
Canczech Dogs, K9 Pirates Lair
With all due respect, Slam has patiently... given you the best advice you will find on this, or any other Forum pertaining to your post.
And.... he has Real Experience, and he has stayed on topic,.... which is rare ......in the world of Internet thugs and know it all's, who will not reveal their Real Name!
Everyone knows who Slam is......and he is one of the few knowledgeable people on this forum.
May I politely suggest that;
Unless you are involved in Law Enforcement, there is no reason to train your dog in Drug Detection!
In fact...it is Dangerous for both of you.
If you want to have fun with your dog and learn Scent Detection there are many groups/clubs doing this now (do a Google search) and they are experienced in scent detection.
- Herbal Scent Detection
It's fun, it's safe and .....it is still hard work.
And......it requires a "Great Bond" between Partners in order to be Successful!
You will need to learn about "scent cones" how environmental factors (wind,rain/heat) can effect your K9's search and alerts, and
why it is important to train your K9 with False/Negative hides/aids......and why you need to record them in your training logs.......
Define Odor? Defense Lawyers favorite question!
Odor- Is the detectable evidence (scent) of molecular migration from solids and liquids into the atmosphere
Alert- The "Alert" exhibited by K9 Jorja was consistent with past Alerts where Narcotics, or the the Odor of Narcotics has been present.
And it goes on and on....
Hope you continue to challenge your pup and yourself, remember...it is always about the dog!
Respectfully
Mr. Kim Moore
Canczech Dogs, K9 Pirates Lair
by Gustav on 08 March 2013 - 07:03
Read Slamdunc's post a couple times, pm him and give him a call....he is very generous with his time and advice.
by Pirates Lair on 08 March 2013 - 07:03
One more thing.....
Slam touched on this but did not finish......believe it or not,....... your K9 will F%^K with you to receive it's reward! .
Watching your dog......knowing your dog is a TRUE ART FORM.
Kim
ps-Jim, My Five dogs..... can beat up your one cat .........so there! Stay Safe out There
Slam touched on this but did not finish......believe it or not,....... your K9 will F%^K with you to receive it's reward! .
Watching your dog......knowing your dog is a TRUE ART FORM.
Kim
ps-Jim, My Five dogs..... can beat up your one cat .........so there! Stay Safe out There
by momosgarage on 08 March 2013 - 15:03
Slamdunc's post is spot on, except the AKC "scent work" title is still being tested. There is no where to get training in it under any AKC venue or club. Its the NACSW that has the courses, trials etc, but they are not affiliated with the AKC at this time and have thier own scorebook.
by VKGSDs on 08 March 2013 - 15:03
UKC now has a nosework program as well.
by minro on 11 March 2013 - 14:03
Thanks everyone!
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