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by Kaffirdog on 22 November 2012 - 12:11
Hi John
My reference to Quadrille was not because he was "English", but because he actually was an acknowledged fitter as well as being a producer of fitting offspring. There have been direct descendants of German imports fitting as well so it clearly is potentially anywhere, but the risk of producing it must be higher if you use, and linebreed to, a dog that was actually having fits. That was my point, not Olde English v Germanic, for all we know, Horand could have been a fitter!
Margaret N-J
My reference to Quadrille was not because he was "English", but because he actually was an acknowledged fitter as well as being a producer of fitting offspring. There have been direct descendants of German imports fitting as well so it clearly is potentially anywhere, but the risk of producing it must be higher if you use, and linebreed to, a dog that was actually having fits. That was my point, not Olde English v Germanic, for all we know, Horand could have been a fitter!
Margaret N-J
by Gustav on 22 November 2012 - 13:11
Seizures in the breed are not prevalent regardless of type or color. There are dogs and breeding practices that are consistent with many illnesses like seizures. In some types where the breeding is not as saturated(in/line breeding), it is very infrequent to see these ailments. In other types where there is large back massing, small gene pools, or the use of dogs with this history (usually because the desire to show or win overcomes rational judgement), this IS very prevalent in the breed.
I am very sorry for the loss of Jazz, and find no solace in the above statements. I hope the owners find peace in near future.....yet this is just as much a breeder problem as a KC problem. If you look at the kennel this dog emanated from, they are longtime breeders....I cannot fathom that they were unaware that epilepsy was in the lines,OR that going to out crossed bloodlines long ago would have lessened the chances of this malady reoccurring....but in the quest to continue the TYPE that they bred for, things like this become prevalent. When you continue to limit the gene pool, with unhealthy line/inbreeding to achieve singular aspects in the breed(color,angulation,excessive drive, etc), bad things occurr on a much more frequent basis than if the breed is reasonably and moderately breed for balance.
The ruination of this breed is the continuation of people breeding for what they LIKE as opposed to breeding for what is necessary, so that bottlenecks do not occur.
I am very sorry for the loss of Jazz, and find no solace in the above statements. I hope the owners find peace in near future.....yet this is just as much a breeder problem as a KC problem. If you look at the kennel this dog emanated from, they are longtime breeders....I cannot fathom that they were unaware that epilepsy was in the lines,OR that going to out crossed bloodlines long ago would have lessened the chances of this malady reoccurring....but in the quest to continue the TYPE that they bred for, things like this become prevalent. When you continue to limit the gene pool, with unhealthy line/inbreeding to achieve singular aspects in the breed(color,angulation,excessive drive, etc), bad things occurr on a much more frequent basis than if the breed is reasonably and moderately breed for balance.
The ruination of this breed is the continuation of people breeding for what they LIKE as opposed to breeding for what is necessary, so that bottlenecks do not occur.
by truckindog on 22 November 2012 - 14:11
Gustav, I take what you say on board but I think you are missing my point and so perhaps are many more. tranceparany and open dialog is the only way forward.
Note here although quite a few are willing to patricipate in this post (and their good wishes are received with gratitude) Only one other has named their dog as suffering from seizures.
How many would, if they thought that there lines were involved be prepared to submit dna so that the condition can be detected before it comes to fruitition.
How many totally innocent pet people have to endure the horrific experience of siezures before breeders do the correct thing.
Surely it is a better person who when they make a mistake stand up and man up than he who hides his head in the sand and points to someone else saying it's them not me sir. John
Note here although quite a few are willing to patricipate in this post (and their good wishes are received with gratitude) Only one other has named their dog as suffering from seizures.
How many would, if they thought that there lines were involved be prepared to submit dna so that the condition can be detected before it comes to fruitition.
How many totally innocent pet people have to endure the horrific experience of siezures before breeders do the correct thing.
Surely it is a better person who when they make a mistake stand up and man up than he who hides his head in the sand and points to someone else saying it's them not me sir. John
by vonissk on 22 November 2012 - 16:11
First of all I am very sorry for the loss of your dog. Secondly I commend you for bring it to the attention of other people and sharing the info that you did. I would ask that anyone that breeds or just owns dogs do this. If I had a dog that all of a sudden came up with some genetic something, I would share it, and I would be begging people to help me figure out where it came from.
However, this is where I draw the line. As I have said before in different words, there is a lot of he said she said on this board and unless I personally have knowledge of the owners or the dogs involved, I am not going to get on here and add fuel to the fire.And when I say knowledge I mean documentation. If someone posts a certain dog and asks, I will either point them to the direction of the owners or send them a PM in which I will tell what I PERSONALLY know. But if I'm not the owner of the dog that is in question, I refuse to get on here and start dropping names and kennel names and warning people about them because that's not my legal or moral right. And not only that, its a damn good way to make enemies in an already cutthroat world................And if one thinks I am horrible for that, I can tell you I'm not the only one who thinks that way.
However, this is where I draw the line. As I have said before in different words, there is a lot of he said she said on this board and unless I personally have knowledge of the owners or the dogs involved, I am not going to get on here and add fuel to the fire.And when I say knowledge I mean documentation. If someone posts a certain dog and asks, I will either point them to the direction of the owners or send them a PM in which I will tell what I PERSONALLY know. But if I'm not the owner of the dog that is in question, I refuse to get on here and start dropping names and kennel names and warning people about them because that's not my legal or moral right. And not only that, its a damn good way to make enemies in an already cutthroat world................And if one thinks I am horrible for that, I can tell you I'm not the only one who thinks that way.
by Gustav on 22 November 2012 - 16:11
I agree John transparency is very important, and I understand your point, but if people are willing to breed these dogs in spite of this knowledge in ever the quest for CC or VA, Excellent Select, then even with transparency this will still occur. We need better ethics and knowledge in breeding of which transparency is a part. Take care!
by Doppelganger on 22 November 2012 - 22:11
I am shocked and sorry to hear about your dog. However I am even more shocked to see that the inbreeding coefficent for him is 25.8% and for Lornaville Moscow Flyer is 36.4% when the breed average is 3.4%, and the Kennel Club refuse to register close relative matings such as brother/sister, father/daughter or mother/son that are at least 25%. With so many German Shepherds available to use why would anyone produce a litter with such a high inbreeding coefficient?
by vonissk on 23 November 2012 - 01:11
Doppleganger, thank you for explaining all that. Though I have no dog in this fight I am always into information and learning more. Once before I put up a post for someone to explain coefficient and what it was and how it mattered. Now I got it...............
by Doppelganger on 23 November 2012 - 11:11
by Stumpywop on 23 November 2012 - 20:11
Persoanlly i think the whole sorry situation is so very sad; in part because of the owners and families who lose their dogs to such a condition and mostly for the dogs who have to suffer through no fault of their own.
I feel I am very lucky in this respect. I grew up with GSDs (Im almost 39) and not one of them has ever suffered from fits of any type/cause.
The 3 GSDs I am currently owned by (1 from a breeder, 1 from Birmingham Dog's Home and 1 from a well-known TV personality/dog trainer via a University friend) have no majorly traumatic diseases to deal with. However, my youngest, a sable WL bitch almost 3 years old is so very badly displastic that she has practically no hip socket on the right hand side. The paperwork was apparently available to me which then disappeared, thent he breeder was supposed to have moved to Spain so couldn't be traced etc- there were a whole host of ecxcuses made so that I couldn't find out where she came from or her history.
A member on here gave me alot of help in trying to find out about Jenzi but even with all the expertise of that member, I got nowhere.
I know how frustrating it can be when one door after another is slammed in your face and you get nowhere fast. But I thank God that I have never had to deal with Epilepsy in any of my dogs for as long as I can remember. I woudl like to think that everyone involved in the breed could play a positive role in helping to eradicate fits of any nature but it seems tome that it's those withthe most experience and knowledge who could do something, who aren't prepared to. It's those people who breed purely for profit and don't give a toss about their dogs, the breed itself or the families who are going to end up completely devastated at the loss of their dogs who should be named and shamed, have their AB status revoked, declined breeding licences and literally exiled from the dog world completely. Unfortuantely, we can't do enough to prevent people from breeding when the evidence of such conditions and diseases is staring them in the face!
I feel I am very lucky in this respect. I grew up with GSDs (Im almost 39) and not one of them has ever suffered from fits of any type/cause.
The 3 GSDs I am currently owned by (1 from a breeder, 1 from Birmingham Dog's Home and 1 from a well-known TV personality/dog trainer via a University friend) have no majorly traumatic diseases to deal with. However, my youngest, a sable WL bitch almost 3 years old is so very badly displastic that she has practically no hip socket on the right hand side. The paperwork was apparently available to me which then disappeared, thent he breeder was supposed to have moved to Spain so couldn't be traced etc- there were a whole host of ecxcuses made so that I couldn't find out where she came from or her history.
A member on here gave me alot of help in trying to find out about Jenzi but even with all the expertise of that member, I got nowhere.
I know how frustrating it can be when one door after another is slammed in your face and you get nowhere fast. But I thank God that I have never had to deal with Epilepsy in any of my dogs for as long as I can remember. I woudl like to think that everyone involved in the breed could play a positive role in helping to eradicate fits of any nature but it seems tome that it's those withthe most experience and knowledge who could do something, who aren't prepared to. It's those people who breed purely for profit and don't give a toss about their dogs, the breed itself or the families who are going to end up completely devastated at the loss of their dogs who should be named and shamed, have their AB status revoked, declined breeding licences and literally exiled from the dog world completely. Unfortuantely, we can't do enough to prevent people from breeding when the evidence of such conditions and diseases is staring them in the face!
by noddi on 23 November 2012 - 20:11
Hiya all,i,m now going to put my experience with epilepsy down on paper.I,m an ex breeder of gsd(no litters for 10 yrs)Kennel club affix RHEINMEISTER which i have held since 1988 n i,m on the german side of the fence.My foundation bitch KC name Cassandra of Walderslade(DOB.26 or 28th Aug.86)never had any health probs.thru.out her life n was PTS aged 9 yrs.from cancer (in her nose)Vet diagnosis,she carried 5 lines to Quadrille,all my animals stem from Cassie ,all progeny were to mainly german line hip scored/haemo.tested males.I have had no health probs.in any of my dogs,most being pts aged around 10-12 yr.mark,as have others gsd exhibitors who have shown/bred from my lines(3 kennels)That was until a litter i bred in 2001.I retained 1 male n 2 females from this litter.None were shown much as they all had weak ears.End of 2002 i bred a litter n all pups had ears up by age of 10 wks,the one i retained put hers up at 5 wks,so i decided that i would mate one of the bitches from the 2001 litter to the sire of 2002 litter to see if ear carriage would improve.The mating took place but said bitch failed to conceive n i,m so grateful for that now,coz a week before remating Krissy(RHEINMEISTER HEAVENLY)had a queer turn,she had also had a queer turn a while before(like she was drunk,unsteady on her feet,very uncororidnated but didnt suspect it could have been a slight fit)So we went to our vet where she had a full blown out seizure in the consulting room,where i think it was valium that they gave her to stop it.She was left at the vets over the weekend n we picked her up on the Monday afternoon with the diagnosis by our vets in consultation with a neurological vet that Krissy was an idiopathic epileptic.Several weeks later Krissy hadnt had any more seizures but it was plain she wasnt right,as she had developed breathing probs.back to vets who later advised that all her blood counts were all over the place n we were advised that she was extremely ill n she was PTS n diagnosis was hinted at CANCER.However we advised Shelia Rankin .Krissy was aged 3.At the end of 2007,her bruv.RHEINMEISTER Gunnar was bringing back his food ,undigested,n his stools looked very tanny colour with a fatty sheen to them.I immediately suspected EPI,which was later diagnosed after the TLI test,altho.it was only borderline.Gunnar only lasted another yr.after trying to put weight on him.....his weight dropped from around 38kg.to 18.5 kg at time of being PTS aged nearly 8,n i was told at that time he also had a heart condition.The other sister RHEINMEISTER was PTS 2008,aged just over 7 as i found her in her kennel having continous fits.Didnt know how long she,d been having them as it was 1st thing in the morn n she looked absolutely exhausted so i n the vet agreed to PTS.3 siblings in one litter,i just couldnt believe it.My current bitch was diagnosed earlier this yr that she has AF(rheinmeister CHI-KI-MI).For me there is a link re the 2001 litter n the 2002 litter.BTW.Chiki is now aged 10 yrs n her dam lived to over 12 yrs(one litter sister still alive)Her granddam was nearly 12 yrs at death,grt.granddam 12yrs n grt.grt.gd.(cassie)9 yrs.Hope this info helps with research.The pedigree for the 2001 litter is with Chris Hazell,who is also aware n has noted Chiki,s pedigree.As far as Chris is aware she has not seen my affix on any pedigree she,s been sent of any gsd afflicted by an inherited condition.Carole Spelman RHEINMEISTER gsds.
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