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by Hundmutter on 18 November 2012 - 17:11
Oh - and word is forever going round over here too that GSDs
are becoming useless for Police dogs, and they are switching
to Malis in droves ... but when you enquire into it, that isn't really
happening at all.
are becoming useless for Police dogs, and they are switching
to Malis in droves ... but when you enquire into it, that isn't really
happening at all.
by vonissk on 18 November 2012 - 18:11
RS I agree.
Hundmutter good post and in reply to your last one..............it's not happening here either. Dallas and OK City mostly use GSDs. And in my little world--I'd say within a 2 hr drive, it is all GSDs--I am always getting calls from departments wanting a puppy to raise for drug work, etc. Mauli is 3.5 yrs and out of her litter we had one go for drug work in North Texas--mentioning the age because it is fairly recent. BTW they love him. Also about the guide dogs. I have heard that the reason they're not using GSDs so much is because of their protective instinct. But I don't believe that for a minute. The reason I think they don't is because of most people being/feeling intimidated by a GSD. I know that is why beagles are used a lot in airports. Also because I feel labs and goldens are cheaper, they are so damn yupp yupp anybody that can't train one had just better stop training. which goes with my next opinion that so many service and guide dog places have sprung up overnight, and most of the trainers in this places with just as much experience--goes with what I just said above about the labs and goldens beung ez to train and work with. Also they are more repititious....meaning they will do the same exercise over and over. IMO to be a good guide dog, one needs to be a self thinker. I feel a lot of that has been lost in our breed when people chose to breed for extremes. And a self thinking shepherd is not the easiest dog to either live with or train. I met a guy at the nationals last month who not only has a shepherd for a guide dog but is working toward a place which only uses shepherds for that purpose. I didn't get to talk to him as much as I would have liked but I did get his contact info and I am hoping to be able to send him a puppy. (donation of course)
And I really like what you said about the whole picture. People take one group of dogs and then run them into the ground--too much generalizing--there is good and bad in every line--as in everything else from the color of your skin to the car you drive to the area you live in to the color of your walls. When I am looking for something else to bring in, as I always am, I first look at the dog itself.Then I go to the pedigree and check out the health testing etc. If I am further interested I go to what he has produced. And I don't care if it is sort of purple with sort of pink spots and lives in the arctic circle. In other words, I am not especially looking at lines--altho I will tell you--there are a couple of "types" that I can tell as soon as I see them and would not even be in the running--I am more interested in the individual dog and what it its claim to fame is and what it can bring to my table.
Hundmutter good post and in reply to your last one..............it's not happening here either. Dallas and OK City mostly use GSDs. And in my little world--I'd say within a 2 hr drive, it is all GSDs--I am always getting calls from departments wanting a puppy to raise for drug work, etc. Mauli is 3.5 yrs and out of her litter we had one go for drug work in North Texas--mentioning the age because it is fairly recent. BTW they love him. Also about the guide dogs. I have heard that the reason they're not using GSDs so much is because of their protective instinct. But I don't believe that for a minute. The reason I think they don't is because of most people being/feeling intimidated by a GSD. I know that is why beagles are used a lot in airports. Also because I feel labs and goldens are cheaper, they are so damn yupp yupp anybody that can't train one had just better stop training. which goes with my next opinion that so many service and guide dog places have sprung up overnight, and most of the trainers in this places with just as much experience--goes with what I just said above about the labs and goldens beung ez to train and work with. Also they are more repititious....meaning they will do the same exercise over and over. IMO to be a good guide dog, one needs to be a self thinker. I feel a lot of that has been lost in our breed when people chose to breed for extremes. And a self thinking shepherd is not the easiest dog to either live with or train. I met a guy at the nationals last month who not only has a shepherd for a guide dog but is working toward a place which only uses shepherds for that purpose. I didn't get to talk to him as much as I would have liked but I did get his contact info and I am hoping to be able to send him a puppy. (donation of course)
And I really like what you said about the whole picture. People take one group of dogs and then run them into the ground--too much generalizing--there is good and bad in every line--as in everything else from the color of your skin to the car you drive to the area you live in to the color of your walls. When I am looking for something else to bring in, as I always am, I first look at the dog itself.Then I go to the pedigree and check out the health testing etc. If I am further interested I go to what he has produced. And I don't care if it is sort of purple with sort of pink spots and lives in the arctic circle. In other words, I am not especially looking at lines--altho I will tell you--there are a couple of "types" that I can tell as soon as I see them and would not even be in the running--I am more interested in the individual dog and what it its claim to fame is and what it can bring to my table.
by Hundmutter on 18 November 2012 - 18:11
I've come across just as many otherwise perfectly clued up
people who don't subscribe to all that gets said about the
Martins, as who do. I just say "I don't know" - I don't schpreken
enough deutsch, and ain't psychic; all I can do is look at what
happened in those years and the levels of what seems to be
expected in Schutzhund / bitework today, compare the numbers
of contestants in each Grade who flunk out, whether badly or
slightly, and draw my own conclusions. Which when all is said
and done is ALL most people do; they just see different things,
influenced by what they already believe, usually - just as with
many other dogmas!
So my 2 cents is that actually the whole "Hundsport isn't serious
work" thing gets played up out of all proportion, there is no Black
v White here, there are variables and shades of grey.
Even if you take it that the ONLY true GSDs are those which
do great manwork in some other arena than the SV's, you really
cannot say "ALL the others have no drives, are soft, would run away,
are bags of nerves, etc etc" just because someone has concentrated
a bit more on breeding for structure over working ability - and I do mean
just 'working ability' rather than 'temperament overall'. And you do need
good conformation / body structure to be a properly-abled working dog;
Von Stephanitz saw that as clearly as anyone. Trad. US AKC, and UK
Alsatians, are of the wrong proportions to be considered correct for that
IMO, whatever other faults (steep croup, hinged back, cow hocks) have
accrued along the way IN SOME SPECIMENS ...
people who don't subscribe to all that gets said about the
Martins, as who do. I just say "I don't know" - I don't schpreken
enough deutsch, and ain't psychic; all I can do is look at what
happened in those years and the levels of what seems to be
expected in Schutzhund / bitework today, compare the numbers
of contestants in each Grade who flunk out, whether badly or
slightly, and draw my own conclusions. Which when all is said
and done is ALL most people do; they just see different things,
influenced by what they already believe, usually - just as with
many other dogmas!
So my 2 cents is that actually the whole "Hundsport isn't serious
work" thing gets played up out of all proportion, there is no Black
v White here, there are variables and shades of grey.
Even if you take it that the ONLY true GSDs are those which
do great manwork in some other arena than the SV's, you really
cannot say "ALL the others have no drives, are soft, would run away,
are bags of nerves, etc etc" just because someone has concentrated
a bit more on breeding for structure over working ability - and I do mean
just 'working ability' rather than 'temperament overall'. And you do need
good conformation / body structure to be a properly-abled working dog;
Von Stephanitz saw that as clearly as anyone. Trad. US AKC, and UK
Alsatians, are of the wrong proportions to be considered correct for that
IMO, whatever other faults (steep croup, hinged back, cow hocks) have
accrued along the way IN SOME SPECIMENS ...
by Gustav on 18 November 2012 - 20:11
@Hundmutter....I have often said on this forum that there is no absolutes or "all" in anything....having said that I usually speak in terms of norms or things you are more likely to see than not. After reading your and Vonissk's posts about structure, conformation and police dogs.....well all I can say is I feel much better....Thanks.
by Hundmutter on 18 November 2012 - 21:11
Gustav - pleased to hear that.
Vonissk - we have an organisation here too just working with GSDs
as seeing eye dogs, completely separate from the Guide Dogs
Association (who still use some Shepherds, too). Can't recall
what the group is called offhand ... I wanna say "pathfinders" but
I'm not sure, I'll look it up.
Vonissk - we have an organisation here too just working with GSDs
as seeing eye dogs, completely separate from the Guide Dogs
Association (who still use some Shepherds, too). Can't recall
what the group is called offhand ... I wanna say "pathfinders" but
I'm not sure, I'll look it up.
by vonissk on 18 November 2012 - 23:11
Gustav I just want you to know how much I appreciate that. Once before you said something to me about being a true GSD person and I really considered that a high compliment coming from you. I have a lot of respect for you because of the way you talk about the dogs and carry yourself on this board.
Now Hundmutter already knows cause we talk via PMs, but the organization I am referring to is Independence Guide Dogs. www.igdogs.org and is located in Seattle. It is a fairly new organization as they say on their site that they plan to turn out their first guide dog next year. I looked at the dogs that have been donated and tho I know none of the kennel names, I will venture to say they are working line dogs. The one puppy he had with him looked to be American but then I could be wrong and it could be a cross. whatever lines he is, he is a very very nice black boy and I liked him a lot. Whoever is raising him is doing an A-1 job. He was 5 months and as outgoing as any dog I have seen. When DeJa, my girl, didn't want much to do with him, then he came to me--like I don't care give me some attention. And then again he had been there all day and I'm sure was tired of being "good" by that time and was ready to be a puppy again. Anyway I have a call in to Toby, the owner, now and we will see what he says. On a couple of the puppies I noticed they were being raised by the donors and I know I don't have the time or the setup--as in acess to classes, etc--to raise a puppy as they would want it raised. I have this one and my next litter I know there will be a black sable calling my name. After that it will be time for a little vacation--as much as one can have with 5 dogs--2 of them puppies--and sit back and see how what I already have out there is turning out. During that time, as I see how they're doing, I can concentrate more on where I am going next.
And Hund what you said about the Martin brothers and all that. On my site I don't have any history or advice or any of that. If you want to know the history of the breed google it or ask me and I will direct you to links and books. If you want advice again feel free to call me with any problems and if I can't help you, I know enough brains to pick to figure it out. Anyone is welcome at any time to come here and check out my dogs. One thing I have noticed is people that are on my waiting list were asking about training and were willing to drive a couple of hours for a good trainer. I have a friend that has been training manners, basic OB, CGC classes and also working with therapy and service dogs for about 15 yrs or so now. I called her and yes she is on board. She has a certified service and therapy dog. People are oh so pleased. I have even decided since I have physical limitations, to work with her and go the therapy route myself. She is going to concentrate on STAR puppies and CGC "titles". She is working on getting her certification for CGC evaluator, NADOI and ADOA certifications. And I am pleased that people want a trained dog even if it is just basics............makes me feel they are for real going to their forever homes............
And for those of you who think I am out here making all the money in the world, please know I'm not. None of this is free. But what I am building is a reputation as an honest helpful person who truly cares about the dogs. Period.................This is the greatest breed in the world, IMO, and I want it to not only stay the greatest breed but by having healthy versitile correct conformation dogs, to make even more friends for the breed.
Now Hundmutter already knows cause we talk via PMs, but the organization I am referring to is Independence Guide Dogs. www.igdogs.org and is located in Seattle. It is a fairly new organization as they say on their site that they plan to turn out their first guide dog next year. I looked at the dogs that have been donated and tho I know none of the kennel names, I will venture to say they are working line dogs. The one puppy he had with him looked to be American but then I could be wrong and it could be a cross. whatever lines he is, he is a very very nice black boy and I liked him a lot. Whoever is raising him is doing an A-1 job. He was 5 months and as outgoing as any dog I have seen. When DeJa, my girl, didn't want much to do with him, then he came to me--like I don't care give me some attention. And then again he had been there all day and I'm sure was tired of being "good" by that time and was ready to be a puppy again. Anyway I have a call in to Toby, the owner, now and we will see what he says. On a couple of the puppies I noticed they were being raised by the donors and I know I don't have the time or the setup--as in acess to classes, etc--to raise a puppy as they would want it raised. I have this one and my next litter I know there will be a black sable calling my name. After that it will be time for a little vacation--as much as one can have with 5 dogs--2 of them puppies--and sit back and see how what I already have out there is turning out. During that time, as I see how they're doing, I can concentrate more on where I am going next.
And Hund what you said about the Martin brothers and all that. On my site I don't have any history or advice or any of that. If you want to know the history of the breed google it or ask me and I will direct you to links and books. If you want advice again feel free to call me with any problems and if I can't help you, I know enough brains to pick to figure it out. Anyone is welcome at any time to come here and check out my dogs. One thing I have noticed is people that are on my waiting list were asking about training and were willing to drive a couple of hours for a good trainer. I have a friend that has been training manners, basic OB, CGC classes and also working with therapy and service dogs for about 15 yrs or so now. I called her and yes she is on board. She has a certified service and therapy dog. People are oh so pleased. I have even decided since I have physical limitations, to work with her and go the therapy route myself. She is going to concentrate on STAR puppies and CGC "titles". She is working on getting her certification for CGC evaluator, NADOI and ADOA certifications. And I am pleased that people want a trained dog even if it is just basics............makes me feel they are for real going to their forever homes............
And for those of you who think I am out here making all the money in the world, please know I'm not. None of this is free. But what I am building is a reputation as an honest helpful person who truly cares about the dogs. Period.................This is the greatest breed in the world, IMO, and I want it to not only stay the greatest breed but by having healthy versitile correct conformation dogs, to make even more friends for the breed.
by Preston on 19 November 2012 - 00:11
Vonissk gets it right. The responsibility starts with each of us individually to select, test, vet, and breed and train properly. the GSD world is global and I think there are over 1200 SV clubs in Europe. The quality ranges from fantastic to poor among many different kinds of kennels and sometimes even within individual litters. It is always "buyer beware". So basically if one does a great deal of research, one can usually find whatever he/she needs or desires. the key is to use referrals and references from folks who can vouch and use reason when selecting such as good vetting.
We just bought a puppy out of a very nice top VA stud dog litter. We needed a female to replace our 12 years old who just died. So we selected a female longcoat because she is an alpha and vetted out very well (normal TLI, normal thyroid, normal hip Xray, normal barium swallow, normal heart function, etc). Yes this costs a fair amount and it is not 100% diagnostic but it is a pretty good way to start and any reputable breeder welcomes this as ours did as long as the buyer pays for the vet exam and tests (with right of refusal if tests are abnormal). This is the first longcoat we ever bought, but the temperament is so exceptional and so rare for a SL import it was the only puppy for us.
By the way Vonissk, if you have a website for the public, can you please post its address here as I would love to visit it. I like the way you think about the breed and we need more who think this way.
We just bought a puppy out of a very nice top VA stud dog litter. We needed a female to replace our 12 years old who just died. So we selected a female longcoat because she is an alpha and vetted out very well (normal TLI, normal thyroid, normal hip Xray, normal barium swallow, normal heart function, etc). Yes this costs a fair amount and it is not 100% diagnostic but it is a pretty good way to start and any reputable breeder welcomes this as ours did as long as the buyer pays for the vet exam and tests (with right of refusal if tests are abnormal). This is the first longcoat we ever bought, but the temperament is so exceptional and so rare for a SL import it was the only puppy for us.
By the way Vonissk, if you have a website for the public, can you please post its address here as I would love to visit it. I like the way you think about the breed and we need more who think this way.
by vonissk on 19 November 2012 - 03:11
Good post Preston and good luck with your new dog. You bet any breeder would love you to do all those tests--I am always very please when anyone I sell a puppy to wants to "do" things with it; training, health testing, showing...............
Sure I will put up my site. It's not the greatest one but it is always a work in progress.
www.vonisskshepherds.com
Thank you very much for the compliments. I consider it very nice because I know you are a very knowledgeable person about the breed and you don't mince words.
Sure I will put up my site. It's not the greatest one but it is always a work in progress.
www.vonisskshepherds.com
Thank you very much for the compliments. I consider it very nice because I know you are a very knowledgeable person about the breed and you don't mince words.
by vonissk on 19 November 2012 - 09:11
Just thought I would add I went over there a while ago and noticed "Auggie" has no OFA results but he has been and I need to fix that. Only one besides Sister is Voo and she won't be 2 until the end of Jan. I will probably get them done in March.
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