does working traits or drive in dogs relate to collor of the dog - Page 3

Melba, I have also had the same experience with labs. Seems like when I got called for problem corrections with dogs, it would be chocolate labs most of the time, and if not a lab,chocolate poodle. Some people would have two labs, black or yellow and chocolate. The problem child was always the chocolate. Maybe the temperament is "diluted" along with the dilute color ?

Oh, Joanro ... I remember the fox experiment, now! Yes, hmmm, you just might have a point there...! I'll see if I can find it. 

bcrawford- you make me laugh!!!  "diddly sqaut dry hump link to color"   ...  


I personally have not noted any correlation between drive levels and color.  

Good job, Bee! I knew you'd find it. :)

jorano, just throwing this out there, I grew up with three Labs, two black, one chocolate and the chocolate is hands down the easiest dog I've ever known. Maybe she's an anomoly? lol

Anyway, this has turned into an intersetnig discussion. I don't think my black GSD is hysterical though. LOL

ETA: Could some of the temperament issues be relating to genetics going back to it's ancestors though? So it's the temperament being passed down, the colour also being passed down is just a coincidence? I have not watched the Silver Fox video yet, sorry if they touched on that and proved otherwise.

Conspicuous, the video is a "must see" if you've never seen it. Even if you have, it's good to see again every so often. It is indisputable evidence that temperament and physical traits are connected. As Gustav always says, there are always exceptions...like my vet likes to say, not all dogs read the book (the book on repro, behavior, etc.) So of course your chocolate could be the exception.
Regarding the video Bee posted for us, there is more to it, and it was used in different documentaries on dogs. But what is posted here does give enough to see the results of the experiment.

I'd like to share a short story one of my puppy owners told me about of the solid black pup they got from me. The man was a k9 handler in the military in Vietnam nam. He already had a black Czech female, and bought my black male (Charik/Genny) puppy. His wife has Alzheimer's and the female doesn't pay much attention to her, but since day one, Porsch has stayed close to her. One morning, the guy couldn't find his wife when he got up. In a panic, he searched the house and finally found his wife outside. She was not alone...sitting next to her was the big black GSD pup, calmly keeping her company. The dog (call name Rocky) is now nine months old, weighs about ninety pounds and last week when they came to visit, his wife shared with me ; "Rocky is my friend."

I remember reading (or more likely, skimming) a research article a few years ago about how redder dogs are stressed more easily (such as redder golden retrievers)--anyone ever seen that one? I have heard of color connections to temperament in some breed. But this doesn't mean that the color is genetically linked to temperament--just that that strain of dogs with X color also had Z temperament and both traits bred through--so correlation, not causation. So a strain of black dogs in one geographic area (or, effectively, regional bloodline) may have different temperament traits than the strain of black dogs in another area.

The thing I wonder about the fox example is that they are not selecting for color, they are selecting for temperament. As they stopped having color and quality of fur as a criteria, these elements changed. To me, this is a correlation, but not necessarily causation. Perhaps they could have the excellent temperaments *and* the excellent fur/color. One more factor that isn't really controlled for in the fox study is the human one: Humans like things that set an animal apart, such as a unique marking. So, the fox with the white splash is going to get more recognition from the human and perhaps find being friendly (less fearful) more rewarding. Finally, one more factor--if you know the fox (chicken/cow/pig) you are dealing with is fated to be killed, you tend to avoid treating it with affection. As soon as its death is no longer imminent and inevitable, the human caretakers are more likely to have a slightly more friendly aspect toward the fox. These foxes, like our dogs, are experts at reading the signals their caretakers are giving off--even if the difference is a very, very small amount of relaxation in their presence.

Christine

Blackthorn, I trust you watched the video. If you didn't you should, as it clearly shows that the color variations never existed in the foxes until generations of selecting for tameness. In the parallel kennel of aggressive/non tame foxes, there was no color changes or changes in tail length. So, the color would be directly connected with the tame temperament. They even did embryo transplants of tame to non tame surrogate mother and vice versa. It made no difference as to the out come of pup temperament with regards to mother temperament. The experiment showed that the tameness is genetic, not learned so it doesn't matter what the attitude of caretaker is. They never had to select for correct coat color at the fur farm, since silver foxes come in........silver. That is until generations of selecting for tameness inadvertently caused weird colored "silver" foxes to be produced.

I just read your post again, Blackthorn. I would like to explain; the reason the foxes were initially selected for tameness in the breeders, was to make handling/caring for them less hazardous to the caretakers. Then the color changes began to appear as well as the short, curled tails. This was an undesired side effect for the fur farm but caught the attention of scientists. Hence the experimental project. I know this information is not in the clip post by Beetree, but I remember it from seeing the story of the silver foxes in the Russian experiment a few years ago. I think it was on Natgeo, and the program was about the fox farm itself, not just a portion of it used in part for a documentary.