Penciling in the German Shepherd dog - Page 2

Doesn't a Dobe have penciling? Never seen a brindle Dobe.

We've covered this multiple times over the years; penciling is not a "rule" for recessive black.

This dog with NO toe penciling DOES carriy a black recessive gene.  I know this, he's my dog.





This dog that HAS toe penciling DOES NOT carry a black recessive gene.  After a couple hundred progeny at least, and being bred to numerous solid black bitches.

Sable/sable, sable/black, and sable/bicolor dogs all show the toe penciling -- it just can be very lightly done--fine black lines on the toes instead of the "muddy" paws often seen. Just about the only sables that I've seen that *don't* have penciling is sable/saddle.

Daryl, does your dog have very thin black lines on his toes?

This sable didn't have the black gene--



Christine

Question: Do we ever see Toe pencilling without mucky hocks?

There's a few dispersed dark hairs, best seen when the dog is wet and they clump together, so that they don't blend in as much.  But not enough to call toe penciling by any measure.  Here's a photo at the original resolution of my dog's wet toes.  http://www.ehretgsd.com/wetdogtoes062611.jpg

Wow Siantha! That certainly looks like a brindle GSD! What does the SV say about brindles, out of curiosty? A very striking looking dog! jackie harris

Siantha, what is that dogs pedigree? I am very curious. I agree with Kalibeck because that dog sure looks black and brindle to me! 

Penciling also sometimes called toe tracings are most commonly seen in agouti/sable German Shepherd Dogs carrying the black recessive gene, in some very dark bicolor GSDs, or in genetic solid black GSDs that have what's sometimes called "bleedthrough" of their lighter genetic ground color showing through on their lower legs.

HOWEVER, I have seen a few very dark agouti/sables who had toe tracings/penciling & appeared to be typical agouti/sables carrying black but who in breeding proved to be pure for agouti/sable and did not carry the black recessive.  Those I've seen so far whose immediate ancestors, pedigrees & progeny record I was able to follow had one or both parents who was agouti/sable that carried the black recessive.  It's possible that an agouti/sable may show this appearance and prove to carry the very dark bicolor pattern but as yet I've not had the necessary data to verify it.

Siantha, I'd love to know the pedigree of the saddle black & brindle-tan dog you posted.  Brindle in the GSD is dominant & affects the ground color (the lighter color-red tan cream or silver of a GSD is actually the ground color- the BLACK actually is the marking color that spreads in genetically determined pattern over the lighter ground color).  Thus a brindle GSD may be a brindle agouti/sable, a saddle pattern brindle, a dark bicolor brindle, or a solid black whose brindle ground color would probably be obscured even if that dog does have "bleedthrough" of the lighter ground color on the lower backs of the legs etc. 

I've personally seen brindle agouti/sable, saddle black & brindle/red, saddle black & brindle/tan & for a brief time I personally owned a bicolor black & brindle/red.   I believe that the mutation for brindle occurs regularly in the breed & isn't actually all that uncommon, but unless the mutation happens to occur in litters owned by reputable breeders who have a lot of knowledge about coat color & pattern genetics in the GSD breed, most brindle GSDs probably either go unrecognized or else there is doubt about parentage of a brindle pup.  Also although I personally found the black & brindle/red bicolor I owned to be attractive, the agouti/sable brindles weren't particularly attractive & brindling in the saddle pattern dog interferes with the illusion of enhanced bone & angulation that the contrast between the saddle & the lighter ground color gives to a saddle pattern dog. 

In the early history of the breed, there were a number of colors, combinations of colors & patterns in the breed that weren't perpetuated, some because of misunderstandings of color genetics, some because of breed club politics, & some probably because influential people in the breed (breed wardens, judges, etc) disliked their appearance.  Most certainly people who want to win choose to breed the colors/patterns the judges put up in the show ring.  One only has to look at the SV Sieger Show to see it is overwhelmingly dominated by saddle pattern black & red dogs, rarely an agouti gets a high placing.  Dark agoutis & solid blacks are never seen in the Sieger Show.  However in working competition which is not a beauty contest, blacks & dark agouti/sable GSDs are very commonly seen.

This is great information.   Rose's 16 day old puppies show what some of you are calling the toe penciling.  Will this always be true for the dog, or do I need to wait a few more weeks to get the puppy's true coloring?