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by Blitzen on 04 February 2012 - 17:02
Since this has understandably morphed into the inclusion of the importance of working ability, aren't many of you breeding for both anyway? Don't you do the health tests you consider appropriate for the breed and use the results when planning your next breeding? Don't most here title their dogs in some venue before breeding them?
by starrchar on 04 February 2012 - 18:02
As always Blitzen you make excellent points.
by VKGSDs on 04 February 2012 - 19:02
Honestly when I see breeders testing for everything under the sun it sends up a red flag. I wonder why they need to test all their dogs for all those things? Have they been cropping up in their lines? Are they using tests (which are not always entirely reliable) to make breeding decisions rather than years of experience and knowledge about their lines and their health?
For me, hips, elbows, and DM make sense. Hips and elbows you cannot certify or rule problems in/out without x-rays. DM is definitely a prblem with this breed tends to happen later on, so if you didn't know a dog had it, he could be bred several times before symptoms start to show. I will be testing my breeding prospects for DM though the breeders I've purchased from did not (haven't held that against them, no reason to suspect DM in their lines).
The other things are things that I would only expect a breeder to test for if their dogs showed symptoms or they had those diseases in their lines and were trying to eradicate them.
I don't think breeder should do it just because it's there. Then why don't parents do preventative screening like CT scans, MRIs, and EEGs for their children? Because you don't do these things without a reason.
For me, hips, elbows, and DM make sense. Hips and elbows you cannot certify or rule problems in/out without x-rays. DM is definitely a prblem with this breed tends to happen later on, so if you didn't know a dog had it, he could be bred several times before symptoms start to show. I will be testing my breeding prospects for DM though the breeders I've purchased from did not (haven't held that against them, no reason to suspect DM in their lines).
The other things are things that I would only expect a breeder to test for if their dogs showed symptoms or they had those diseases in their lines and were trying to eradicate them.
I don't think breeder should do it just because it's there. Then why don't parents do preventative screening like CT scans, MRIs, and EEGs for their children? Because you don't do these things without a reason.
by Blitzen on 05 February 2012 - 00:02
Are we sure we know which health issues are problems in this breed. It's hasn't been too long ago that some breeders said they saw no need to xray hips, none of their dogs were lame. Then it was UAP, never had that either. A DNA test for DM has been available for almost 4 years and still some have never heard of the test or DM? Who knows what CERF exams, thyroid scans, cardiac tests, etc would find. Maybe we don't really want to know.
by BlackthornGSD on 05 February 2012 - 01:02
Well, yeah, I guess you wouldn't know what problems your dogs might carry if you've only owned them for a year or so.
I am pretty sure that my 13.5 year old female is clear of inherited heart and vision problems and that she doesn't have problems with her thyroid, or PF, or EPI. or juvenile renal disease. Her oldest kids are 10 now--so far, all of them are clear of those problems too. She was tested (clear/clear) for the DM gene a couple of years ago, so I have been pleased to be able to tell the people who have puppies from her that they will never have to worry about that particular horror.
She's still going strong now, too, although two of her pups (different litters) have died of hemangiosarcoma. As soon as there is a DNA test for that, I'll be using it.*
So, yeah, if someone's been breeding for a while and has done more than just buy a pregnant bitch, they should have seen the consequences and tell-tale signs of health problems.
Longetivity is its own sort of testing, I suppose, and survival is the best certification of all.
Christine
*The sires of the two kids who died (age 8 and age 10--too young!!!) both survived to be over 11 years old and neither died from hemangio; I don't think we're going to find that a single gene is responsible or that it will be easy to eliminate from the GSD gene pool.
I am pretty sure that my 13.5 year old female is clear of inherited heart and vision problems and that she doesn't have problems with her thyroid, or PF, or EPI. or juvenile renal disease. Her oldest kids are 10 now--so far, all of them are clear of those problems too. She was tested (clear/clear) for the DM gene a couple of years ago, so I have been pleased to be able to tell the people who have puppies from her that they will never have to worry about that particular horror.
She's still going strong now, too, although two of her pups (different litters) have died of hemangiosarcoma. As soon as there is a DNA test for that, I'll be using it.*
So, yeah, if someone's been breeding for a while and has done more than just buy a pregnant bitch, they should have seen the consequences and tell-tale signs of health problems.
Longetivity is its own sort of testing, I suppose, and survival is the best certification of all.
Christine
*The sires of the two kids who died (age 8 and age 10--too young!!!) both survived to be over 11 years old and neither died from hemangio; I don't think we're going to find that a single gene is responsible or that it will be easy to eliminate from the GSD gene pool.
by Rik on 05 February 2012 - 03:02
Maybe we don't really want to know." Blitzen, you said a mouth full there. HD/ED are required by the SV because it had reached near epidemic proportions and was affecting the "product". If these other issues reach that level, then there will be mandatory checks for them also.
The spinal issues I mentioned in my previous post was a gift from an Am. Grand Victor, owned, bred and foisted on the public by a GSDCA officer at the highest level.
I guess I was lucky, but DM is one of the few issues listed here that I never saw or was even aware of before I read of it here.
Thyroid is for sure something I would test for if I was a breeder starting out. I would be much more concerned with allergies than CERF.
The bitch in my avatar is 5 y.o. has a ZW of 74, V rating in Germany and the U.S. In the 3 years I have owned her has never required a vet visit for anything other than routine fecal exams and vaccinations. Has stools like rocks. In her most recent outing was a regional Siegerin and passed lifetime breed survey. Can see a sleeve at 50 yards and has the heart to get her there at full speed. Did well in the one AKC show she entered, but according to some here, I should start looking for reasons not to breed her. I just think that is BS. There are no perfect dogs.
There is an Am. S/L in my area who is in Law Enforcement. I watched him grow up and he was very promising for the Am. show ring. He was washed out because he could not wag his tail (a gift from the same Am. GV I mentioned above, 6 gen. later). He is also sickle hocked. But he will damn sure track your azz down and he is damn sure ready for the fight when he gets there. But breed worthy, not by a country mile. Just an anecdote for anyone who considers that putting a dog in LE is automatically furthering the breed.
Rik
The spinal issues I mentioned in my previous post was a gift from an Am. Grand Victor, owned, bred and foisted on the public by a GSDCA officer at the highest level.
I guess I was lucky, but DM is one of the few issues listed here that I never saw or was even aware of before I read of it here.
Thyroid is for sure something I would test for if I was a breeder starting out. I would be much more concerned with allergies than CERF.
The bitch in my avatar is 5 y.o. has a ZW of 74, V rating in Germany and the U.S. In the 3 years I have owned her has never required a vet visit for anything other than routine fecal exams and vaccinations. Has stools like rocks. In her most recent outing was a regional Siegerin and passed lifetime breed survey. Can see a sleeve at 50 yards and has the heart to get her there at full speed. Did well in the one AKC show she entered, but according to some here, I should start looking for reasons not to breed her. I just think that is BS. There are no perfect dogs.
There is an Am. S/L in my area who is in Law Enforcement. I watched him grow up and he was very promising for the Am. show ring. He was washed out because he could not wag his tail (a gift from the same Am. GV I mentioned above, 6 gen. later). He is also sickle hocked. But he will damn sure track your azz down and he is damn sure ready for the fight when he gets there. But breed worthy, not by a country mile. Just an anecdote for anyone who considers that putting a dog in LE is automatically furthering the breed.
Rik
by Blitzen on 05 February 2012 - 03:02
Ah.....allergies...the bane of many a GSD yet so many consider them a minor "skin problem" and think it's perfectly OK to breed dogs with allergies and to repeat breedings that have produced them.
I guess if breeding good GSD's were easy, there would be lot more good ones, eh?
I guess if breeding good GSD's were easy, there would be lot more good ones, eh?
by Kalibeck on 05 February 2012 - 04:02
I certainly wish there was a test for EPI. A dog that has been perfectly healthy with no issues at all can suddenly manifest this awful disease at 3 to 7 years with no warning. By that time, the dog could have been bred & passed this along, with out ever knowing the dog was a carrier. While the symptoms can sometimes be controlled, there is no cure, & it is expensive & heartbeaking to treat. The severe nutritional collapse (essentially starvation) of the dog can lead to nervous system problems as the myelin sheath is destroyed unless cobalamine injections are also provided (as intrinsic factor is lost) along with the triad of digestive enzymes that the pancreas usually supplies.
Interestingly enough, this disease was limited to GSDs & 1 or 2 other breeds, & now has spread throughout the canine world to other breeds, which would argue against heritability.
But a test of any sort, or vaccine against, EPI would be my wish. jackie harris
Interestingly enough, this disease was limited to GSDs & 1 or 2 other breeds, & now has spread throughout the canine world to other breeds, which would argue against heritability.
But a test of any sort, or vaccine against, EPI would be my wish. jackie harris
by workingdogz on 05 February 2012 - 10:02
Blackthorn wrote:
"So, yeah, if someone's been breeding for a while and has done more than just buy a pregnant bitch, they should have seen the consequences and tell-tale signs of health problems.
Longetivity is its own sort of testing, I suppose, and survival is the best certification of all."
Excellent statement Blackthorn!
Just like "pop up stores" we have
"pop up breeders". Those that have done
nothing more than buy dogs/puppies-
titled or untitled- and become "breeders".
The usual lifespan for the "pop up breeder"
is about 3-5 years max. By this time,
the progeny are maturing and problems
start to appear, and even though the buyers
may have a "guarantee", the "breeder" is no
longer breeding, so too bad so sad.
Health clearances are a super idea, but don't
just focus on those as a breeding tool. Make sure
when you set out to breed German Shepherds,
that you are in fact doing so, this is supposed to be
a "working/herding" breed, so work them too!
It's how we can hope to maintain important
traits like biddability, agility and courage!
I've said it before and will say it again.
When you take a dog and start to work it,
(I'll use schutzhund as my arena of work),
you will start to see any real problems in the
dog. Does the dog travel well, does he stay
sound or come up sore? Tire easily? No natural
endurance etc? You will also find out more
about that dogs temperment and what makes it
tick by having the dog perform exercises at your
direction etc.
The health testing will let you know there are
or are not issues present too, but don't just stop
there! It will become a fad to have all those tests
instead of working titles.
"So, yeah, if someone's been breeding for a while and has done more than just buy a pregnant bitch, they should have seen the consequences and tell-tale signs of health problems.
Longetivity is its own sort of testing, I suppose, and survival is the best certification of all."
Excellent statement Blackthorn!
Just like "pop up stores" we have
"pop up breeders". Those that have done
nothing more than buy dogs/puppies-
titled or untitled- and become "breeders".
The usual lifespan for the "pop up breeder"
is about 3-5 years max. By this time,
the progeny are maturing and problems
start to appear, and even though the buyers
may have a "guarantee", the "breeder" is no
longer breeding, so too bad so sad.
Health clearances are a super idea, but don't
just focus on those as a breeding tool. Make sure
when you set out to breed German Shepherds,
that you are in fact doing so, this is supposed to be
a "working/herding" breed, so work them too!
It's how we can hope to maintain important
traits like biddability, agility and courage!
I've said it before and will say it again.
When you take a dog and start to work it,
(I'll use schutzhund as my arena of work),
you will start to see any real problems in the
dog. Does the dog travel well, does he stay
sound or come up sore? Tire easily? No natural
endurance etc? You will also find out more
about that dogs temperment and what makes it
tick by having the dog perform exercises at your
direction etc.
The health testing will let you know there are
or are not issues present too, but don't just stop
there! It will become a fad to have all those tests
instead of working titles.
by shepherdhope on 05 February 2012 - 11:02
I would go to a breeder that extensive health tests, than just hips and elbows. Due to all the conditions and problems with the shepherds. I would think they were being fantastic ambassador for the breed. Why would anybody think health tests are a red flag?
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