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by JudyK on 27 January 2012 - 22:01
It would certainly appear that Jan is being held to a higher standard than 99% of the people who post on this board. Over and over people post assumptions and are not sanctioned for their views. You can go to almost any thread on this board and find assumptions that are far more harmful than what Jan has posted and nothing is ever said.
What Jan is bringing to our attention is information that breeders need in order to make informed decisions for the future of the breed. When transparency disappears we are all the losers. I applaud Jan for his courage despite the backlash he encounters when bringing new information to those who care.
Ulli, you are correct that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what the outcome of this will be. As you said, it's right there in the SV rulebook.
Judy
What Jan is bringing to our attention is information that breeders need in order to make informed decisions for the future of the breed. When transparency disappears we are all the losers. I applaud Jan for his courage despite the backlash he encounters when bringing new information to those who care.
Ulli, you are correct that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what the outcome of this will be. As you said, it's right there in the SV rulebook.
Judy
by Oskar1 on 27 January 2012 - 22:01
Thanks Jim.
GSDadmin,
Jan did go overboard with some things, yup, I believe a few posts back I said that. And yes , you are right, Jan said something to that point, what 1, 1 1/2 years ago ? Do all posts get deletet where peopel do go overboard a little ? Answer that for yourself !
Pretty sad, when the blind is leading the blind - yup the fact you had at hand was an official Mail from the Swedish Breed Club, this mail was presented and offert to you for verification. You had the choice to say - ok I will leave the official part up to warn & inform peopel, but I will take down the "assumptions" down - nope you choose the route to delete everything, explaining in your first post you did so due to the fact that you were angry about Jan. Now this sounds a little different. In your first post you claimed all this was solmly based on your decision, now it reads all admins are weary of Jan's postings....
Nope Sir, fact is, you had proof at hand, letter of the kennel club, it was offered to you for verification, you just decided to ignore it.
It would be nice if some would have the guts to admit they screwed up - but hey, it aint a perfect world, is it ? And after all, it's only our breed that is taken to the cleaners, is it ?
Ulli
GSDadmin,
Jan did go overboard with some things, yup, I believe a few posts back I said that. And yes , you are right, Jan said something to that point, what 1, 1 1/2 years ago ? Do all posts get deletet where peopel do go overboard a little ? Answer that for yourself !
Pretty sad, when the blind is leading the blind - yup the fact you had at hand was an official Mail from the Swedish Breed Club, this mail was presented and offert to you for verification. You had the choice to say - ok I will leave the official part up to warn & inform peopel, but I will take down the "assumptions" down - nope you choose the route to delete everything, explaining in your first post you did so due to the fact that you were angry about Jan. Now this sounds a little different. In your first post you claimed all this was solmly based on your decision, now it reads all admins are weary of Jan's postings....
Nope Sir, fact is, you had proof at hand, letter of the kennel club, it was offered to you for verification, you just decided to ignore it.
It would be nice if some would have the guts to admit they screwed up - but hey, it aint a perfect world, is it ? And after all, it's only our breed that is taken to the cleaners, is it ?
Ulli
by GSD Admin on 27 January 2012 - 22:01
It is always easy to second guess the moderators and no matter what we seem to find ourselves on the wrong side of members.
Again, I based my decision on the past false reports and what appeared to be hearsay on an investigation that the SV said was not complete.
I make split second decisions and I go with the best information I have at that time, I ride my gut feelings--right or wrong.
I surely would love for some of the naysayers to try this for a week or two. I don't think most could handle it.
Again, I based my decision on the past false reports and what appeared to be hearsay on an investigation that the SV said was not complete.
I make split second decisions and I go with the best information I have at that time, I ride my gut feelings--right or wrong.
I surely would love for some of the naysayers to try this for a week or two. I don't think most could handle it.
by GSD Admin on 27 January 2012 - 23:01
Uli,
The letter also said the investigation was not complete and Jan would hear back when done. At that time the investigation was not done.
I already said I go with what I have at the time. Am I going to make an apology--nope--because I make decisons as they happen with the best info at the time. and not info that comes out weeks later.
My offer stands to anyone--if you think you can do better--here ya go.
The letter also said the investigation was not complete and Jan would hear back when done. At that time the investigation was not done.
I already said I go with what I have at the time. Am I going to make an apology--nope--because I make decisons as they happen with the best info at the time. and not info that comes out weeks later.
My offer stands to anyone--if you think you can do better--here ya go.
by Oskar1 on 27 January 2012 - 23:01
So you based your decision on facts ?
At the time Jan postet, the SV had no ongoing investigation - get your facts straight.
The SV came out with their warning 3-4 days later then Jan did !
The Swedish Kennel Club had proof that there has been fraud with the x-rays, that there were 2 different dogs x-rayed. That was fact enough for the Swedish Kennel Club to inform breeders and to continue their investigation.
But aparantly not enough facts for the so well informed admins of PDB ! Man, can it get any better ?
When the SV posted their warning, it was based on the information given by the swedish kennel club - enough facts for the SV, but not for PDB ?
2011-12-28 Jan warned on his Blog the first time
2011-12-29 Jan postet on PDB
2011-12-29 Jan informed the SV about what he had found out
2011-12-29 Jans posting was deleted
2012-01-01 SV posted a warning on their HP
2012-01-26 SV posted that the findings of the Swedish Kennel Club are true, and that there were 2
different dogs x-rayed. The ED 2 Grade from Sweden is legitimit.
Oh well, and by the way, when Jan posted on PDB he put that also on his Blog. Right there and then he expressed his concern that he thought it would be deletet from PDB rather fast - and so it was !
Judy, thanks - it is a disgrace what is happening here. I did not look into it, to the fact of how many breedings Juguar and his offsprings had sofar, but I see a lot of grief ahead of us.
Ulli
At the time Jan postet, the SV had no ongoing investigation - get your facts straight.
The SV came out with their warning 3-4 days later then Jan did !
The Swedish Kennel Club had proof that there has been fraud with the x-rays, that there were 2 different dogs x-rayed. That was fact enough for the Swedish Kennel Club to inform breeders and to continue their investigation.
But aparantly not enough facts for the so well informed admins of PDB ! Man, can it get any better ?
When the SV posted their warning, it was based on the information given by the swedish kennel club - enough facts for the SV, but not for PDB ?
2011-12-28 Jan warned on his Blog the first time
2011-12-29 Jan postet on PDB
2011-12-29 Jan informed the SV about what he had found out
2011-12-29 Jans posting was deleted
2012-01-01 SV posted a warning on their HP
2012-01-26 SV posted that the findings of the Swedish Kennel Club are true, and that there were 2
different dogs x-rayed. The ED 2 Grade from Sweden is legitimit.
Oh well, and by the way, when Jan posted on PDB he put that also on his Blog. Right there and then he expressed his concern that he thought it would be deletet from PDB rather fast - and so it was !
Judy, thanks - it is a disgrace what is happening here. I did not look into it, to the fact of how many breedings Juguar and his offsprings had sofar, but I see a lot of grief ahead of us.
Ulli
by GSD Admin on 27 January 2012 - 23:01
Swedish kennel club--SV. My mistake.
I see, I need to be perfect and someone who is in the KNOW can be wrong multiple times and now I am an uniformed PDB admin. More cut downs to admins. *sigh*
Okay you win. I feel bad for all those puppies I caused to be bred because I removed something that I felt was not complete. Almost like the people doing these breedings would check in here to make sure it was okay.
I see, I need to be perfect and someone who is in the KNOW can be wrong multiple times and now I am an uniformed PDB admin. More cut downs to admins. *sigh*
Okay you win. I feel bad for all those puppies I caused to be bred because I removed something that I felt was not complete. Almost like the people doing these breedings would check in here to make sure it was okay.
by Dog1 on 27 January 2012 - 23:01
Ulli,
No one doubts the content of the letter or the situation exists. Once the issue was posted, Jan went on to post the results of the SV hip ratings where were determined to be 0. What is 0 in the SV system? Apparently 0 was in Jan's mind a passing score where the results of the Swedish hips were not. Can you tell me how the Swedish hip score compared to the SV rating of 0? Was the posted information even accurate?
Jan went on to say the owner by name would be disciplined? Is this fair? That may very well be the case but isn't it proper to allow someone to present their argument before someone jumps to conclusions about a person's reputation and slanders them on an international forum?
All the progeny will be banned? Has this determination been made by the SV? Maybe they will but until they do, to make this statement is not responsible. There have been other similar situations where problems such as this were addressed. Nero Nobachtal for example. Rumor in the beginning was Nero's offspring would be banned. Turns out they were not. If Jaguar looses his hip rating and consequently his breed survey would he not still be a German Shepherd and able to register litters with white papers? His offspring would not be from a performance breeding and they could not go VA. We have seen examples of this also such as Ulk Arlett. Maybe the SV will just change the papers from pink to white? Maybe the SV will request another set of X rays? Who knows what the SV will do. Until the SV decides, it's premature to make accusations, draw conclusions and present them as fact.
Remember the thread about Zara and all the accusations about the breeder and the corrupt SV? Jan certainly jumped to numerous conclusions and accusations on that thread. In the end it was determined it was the same dog and there was a difference of professional opinion. Zara went on to go VA again. No one was ruining the breed. No one was corrupt. No one was selling VA dogs and making money. Jan was doing what Jan has done for years,,,, taken a thread of truth and added his own dramatic accusations as truth based on conjecture and his track record isn't that good.
Some people fall for the displaced logic. We have a letter. Here is the letter. Since the letter exists, everything I say about the letter and the ramifications of the letter are true. 1+1 equals 2 and because 1+1 equals 2, that means 2+2 equals 3. That's the type of logic Jantie uses in their arguments.
No one doubts the content of the letter or the situation exists. Once the issue was posted, Jan went on to post the results of the SV hip ratings where were determined to be 0. What is 0 in the SV system? Apparently 0 was in Jan's mind a passing score where the results of the Swedish hips were not. Can you tell me how the Swedish hip score compared to the SV rating of 0? Was the posted information even accurate?
Jan went on to say the owner by name would be disciplined? Is this fair? That may very well be the case but isn't it proper to allow someone to present their argument before someone jumps to conclusions about a person's reputation and slanders them on an international forum?
All the progeny will be banned? Has this determination been made by the SV? Maybe they will but until they do, to make this statement is not responsible. There have been other similar situations where problems such as this were addressed. Nero Nobachtal for example. Rumor in the beginning was Nero's offspring would be banned. Turns out they were not. If Jaguar looses his hip rating and consequently his breed survey would he not still be a German Shepherd and able to register litters with white papers? His offspring would not be from a performance breeding and they could not go VA. We have seen examples of this also such as Ulk Arlett. Maybe the SV will just change the papers from pink to white? Maybe the SV will request another set of X rays? Who knows what the SV will do. Until the SV decides, it's premature to make accusations, draw conclusions and present them as fact.
Remember the thread about Zara and all the accusations about the breeder and the corrupt SV? Jan certainly jumped to numerous conclusions and accusations on that thread. In the end it was determined it was the same dog and there was a difference of professional opinion. Zara went on to go VA again. No one was ruining the breed. No one was corrupt. No one was selling VA dogs and making money. Jan was doing what Jan has done for years,,,, taken a thread of truth and added his own dramatic accusations as truth based on conjecture and his track record isn't that good.
Some people fall for the displaced logic. We have a letter. Here is the letter. Since the letter exists, everything I say about the letter and the ramifications of the letter are true. 1+1 equals 2 and because 1+1 equals 2, that means 2+2 equals 3. That's the type of logic Jantie uses in their arguments.
by Oskar1 on 28 January 2012 - 00:01
Hey GSDadmin,
dont feel too bad now, we all screw up every so often. Furthermore I believe nobody would only relay on the PDB to get a breeding done, or base his/hers decision to breed only on PDB, but it sure would make me look deeper into some things.
The main thing here is the fact that fraud was committed on a scale I have not encounterd before, and it needs to stop ! This will only work if ALL are pulling on the same string - we need to get these criminals out of our breed, and yes it will get ugly.
Jan did get a lot started, therefore he has my outmost respect. He invested more time the last few years in investigating, then many of us on the trainingfield !
Lets cut the crap - let's rather work together. I can assure you, if you would have aproached Jan and would have asked for that letter, he would have send it over in a heart beat - but he sure does get pissed when challanged !! Other than that, he is actually a nice, hard working guy.
Anyhow, I am going back under my stone - see you !
Ulli
dont feel too bad now, we all screw up every so often. Furthermore I believe nobody would only relay on the PDB to get a breeding done, or base his/hers decision to breed only on PDB, but it sure would make me look deeper into some things.
The main thing here is the fact that fraud was committed on a scale I have not encounterd before, and it needs to stop ! This will only work if ALL are pulling on the same string - we need to get these criminals out of our breed, and yes it will get ugly.
Jan did get a lot started, therefore he has my outmost respect. He invested more time the last few years in investigating, then many of us on the trainingfield !
Lets cut the crap - let's rather work together. I can assure you, if you would have aproached Jan and would have asked for that letter, he would have send it over in a heart beat - but he sure does get pissed when challanged !! Other than that, he is actually a nice, hard working guy.
Anyhow, I am going back under my stone - see you !
Ulli
by Louis Donald on 28 January 2012 - 00:01
My observation of all of the comments made to date is that when you remove the emotive material the core concerns and sentiments being expressed are all pretty much the same especially in regard to how the SV will deal with this matter. With all due respect to those sincere and idealistic individuals who are within the SV and who are doing the right thing, from my perspective this concern relates to its transition from the highly idealistic, moralistic and disciplined days of Dr Rummel.
My suggestion to Jantie to chill out was made in a constructive way in so far as the point had been made and any further inflammatory pushing of it could lessen the case being put forward. Speaking in general terms this often happens with people [ me included ] who are very passionate about the breed and sometimes push a point they believe in so hard that they start to loose supporters.
I see a question put regarding why would someone who bought Harley X Ray the father? Putting aside that the matter is yet to be worked through by the SV and at the end of the day, like it or not, that is the only authority that can make a meaningful ruling, unfortunately money is always at the core of things such as this and the higher the ranking of a dog [ male ] at the Sieger Show in the Open class the greater the value of the dog - this is when the 'really serious money' comes into play - you need to look forward to the Sieger Show in 2012 to get your answer as to why this would have been done.
Regardless of this particular matter I know everyone who has contributed to this thread is very concerned for the breed and where it is going in Germany and on that score I am sure there is agreement between us all. I made this point in the article I wrote on the 2011 Sieger Show.
Louis
My suggestion to Jantie to chill out was made in a constructive way in so far as the point had been made and any further inflammatory pushing of it could lessen the case being put forward. Speaking in general terms this often happens with people [ me included ] who are very passionate about the breed and sometimes push a point they believe in so hard that they start to loose supporters.
I see a question put regarding why would someone who bought Harley X Ray the father? Putting aside that the matter is yet to be worked through by the SV and at the end of the day, like it or not, that is the only authority that can make a meaningful ruling, unfortunately money is always at the core of things such as this and the higher the ranking of a dog [ male ] at the Sieger Show in the Open class the greater the value of the dog - this is when the 'really serious money' comes into play - you need to look forward to the Sieger Show in 2012 to get your answer as to why this would have been done.
Regardless of this particular matter I know everyone who has contributed to this thread is very concerned for the breed and where it is going in Germany and on that score I am sure there is agreement between us all. I made this point in the article I wrote on the 2011 Sieger Show.
Louis
by Oskar1 on 28 January 2012 - 00:01
Dog1,
I am done....you said it, we or better Jan had that letter. Aparantly you deemed that letter as not beeing enough proof aswell - well it turns out that this was true in the the end.
Sadly enough, it is apropriat to question everything going on in our club, as there are to many "money makers" "dealers" & brokers in our "Hobby Breed", they are not in it for the wellbeing of our breed - they are in it for the money. And when money comes into place, greed takes over, when there is greed, there is no room for caring for a single animal. It is more like in life stock breeding - if the animal is not productive anymore, or generates no more income it is replaced.
Ulli
I am done....you said it, we or better Jan had that letter. Aparantly you deemed that letter as not beeing enough proof aswell - well it turns out that this was true in the the end.
Sadly enough, it is apropriat to question everything going on in our club, as there are to many "money makers" "dealers" & brokers in our "Hobby Breed", they are not in it for the wellbeing of our breed - they are in it for the money. And when money comes into place, greed takes over, when there is greed, there is no room for caring for a single animal. It is more like in life stock breeding - if the animal is not productive anymore, or generates no more income it is replaced.
Ulli
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