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by momosgarage on 10 August 2011 - 20:08
it would be big news, some boffin made famous!
You are mistaken, it would not.
I am looking for information on this topic while mourning the terrible loss of my Graci.
Actually the LACK of answers should tell you everything you need to know. There are enough people on this board with decades of experience to make pretty good educated guesses. You mean to tell me not ONE person up to this point has noticed anecdotally that certain sires or dams have more pups than usual with hemangiosarcoma? To do so would simply require the same anecdotal observations people make to identify a crappy designed car, yet not one person has made a peep about lines they THINK might be susceptible based on PAST OBSERVED EXPERIENCE OVER THE COURSE OF DECADES. My guess is that you will get no answer, even if there is one, because in reality the comment I made which was dismissed by missbeeb as "too silly" is ABSOLUTELY TRUE. I'll post it again below:
Thats a lot of money to be lost in the market, so I assume it will be hush, hush until doomsday.
Note, I didn't say anyone is getting rich from dog breeding, but losing all your breeding stock and credibility isn't anyones goal either. Second note, if you really are serious about finding a scientific studies on this topic, simply be willing to follow the instructions I gave to missbeeb. You will find something worth your time, I spent an hour skimming related journal artilces and found quite a bit worth looking into further, but I am also smart enough to know I would need help from someone more educated than myself to validate the findings. Last tip, try to figure out researchers whom are developing DNA tests for Hemangiosarcoma in dogs. There a people working on this, you just have to do the leg work to figure out who they are and what countries they are in. The question really is not IF such tests exist, but rather will they become available to the general public at some point.
You are mistaken, it would not.
I am looking for information on this topic while mourning the terrible loss of my Graci.
Actually the LACK of answers should tell you everything you need to know. There are enough people on this board with decades of experience to make pretty good educated guesses. You mean to tell me not ONE person up to this point has noticed anecdotally that certain sires or dams have more pups than usual with hemangiosarcoma? To do so would simply require the same anecdotal observations people make to identify a crappy designed car, yet not one person has made a peep about lines they THINK might be susceptible based on PAST OBSERVED EXPERIENCE OVER THE COURSE OF DECADES. My guess is that you will get no answer, even if there is one, because in reality the comment I made which was dismissed by missbeeb as "too silly" is ABSOLUTELY TRUE. I'll post it again below:
Thats a lot of money to be lost in the market, so I assume it will be hush, hush until doomsday.
Note, I didn't say anyone is getting rich from dog breeding, but losing all your breeding stock and credibility isn't anyones goal either. Second note, if you really are serious about finding a scientific studies on this topic, simply be willing to follow the instructions I gave to missbeeb. You will find something worth your time, I spent an hour skimming related journal artilces and found quite a bit worth looking into further, but I am also smart enough to know I would need help from someone more educated than myself to validate the findings. Last tip, try to figure out researchers whom are developing DNA tests for Hemangiosarcoma in dogs. There a people working on this, you just have to do the leg work to figure out who they are and what countries they are in. The question really is not IF such tests exist, but rather will they become available to the general public at some point.
by missbeeb on 10 August 2011 - 21:08
Momos... you were not making reference to breeding lines, but to colour. Basically, you were saying, that red coloured dogs are more likely to get cancer... 3 of your Vets apparently concurred:
I have heard the same thing anecdotally from three vets I have had over the years. They said Dark red and black shepherds with saddles seem to always be the ones that have some kind of cancer and/or malabsorption problems.
Again... too silly!
...and a further full paragraph from you:
I agree with TingiesandTails no breeder on the forum is going to announce any possibility of such being true. The Dark red and black shepherds with saddles are very very "fashionable coloured dogs". Outside of my club its all I see at AKC obedience trials. Besides pet owners, I would say anecdotally most active sport shepherds sold to people outside of schutzhund and government are in fact Dark red and black shepherds with saddles. Thats a lot of money to be lost in the market, so I assume it will be hush, hush until doomsday.
The plethora of "fashionable coloured dogs" would explain your Vets' perception and back up my comment, that the vast majority of dogs ARE black and red / tan. I shall not comment further... no need.
Sincere apologies Kari, I did not intend to post again on your thread, but I do detest being misquoted, or having my comments taken out of context.
by oso on 10 August 2011 - 23:08
Sorry again Kari, and very sorry for the loss of your dogs, its always hard whatever, unfortunately Hemangiosarcoma does seem to be a relatively common cancer in GSDs in general.
I just felt I had to say that while most scientific articles are not readily available to people who don´t happen to have subscriptions to the journals concerned or library access, I am sure that it is not illegal and there is absolutely nothing wrong with quoting such articles and copying extracts from them providing that the author is acknowledged and the citation provided. So anyone who has read scientific studies suggesting that cancer is more common in red-coloured dogs (???) should be able to back this statement up? (and such studies, if scientific, would, as missbeeb points out, have to take into account the proportion of red GSDs in the overall GSD population too)....
I just felt I had to say that while most scientific articles are not readily available to people who don´t happen to have subscriptions to the journals concerned or library access, I am sure that it is not illegal and there is absolutely nothing wrong with quoting such articles and copying extracts from them providing that the author is acknowledged and the citation provided. So anyone who has read scientific studies suggesting that cancer is more common in red-coloured dogs (???) should be able to back this statement up? (and such studies, if scientific, would, as missbeeb points out, have to take into account the proportion of red GSDs in the overall GSD population too)....
by momosgarage on 10 August 2011 - 23:08
oso, you are right, no doubt about it.
My point was that I am not willing to do that much work for this topic. I started with the articles provided by TingiesandTails, I then read through the references of said articles, found by CHANCE that the Prymak, McKee, Goldschmidt and Glickman article is cited quite a bit in other studies, and then skimmed a few additonal articles which use that citation.
Thats as far as I went!
I do feel there was enough stuff there that if someone was interested they could whip up quite a bit of interesting findings. I am simply not that interested, but advise folks to look up the Prymak, McKee, Goldschmidt and Glickman article and any articles which cite it. Its a good start and I provided the proper citation for this article. Whats being asked for here IS A LOT OF WORK, which I am certain nobody on this thread understands at all. Again, I am not simply looking up articles in a friggin "google search" and then providing links. If it was that simple I would have done it already.
Here it is one more time:
Prymak C, McKee LJ, Goldschmidt MH, Glickman LT.(1988) Epidemiologic, clinical, pathologic, and prognostic characteristics of splenic hemangiosarcoma and splenic hematoma in dogs: 217 cases (1985). Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association. 193(6):706-12.
Oh, BTW the University of Cambridge Veterinary School is doing a study on this very topic. Being aware of this fact I know the course of action I would take if I were to trying to get MORE info on such a topic.
Do any of you?
My point was that I am not willing to do that much work for this topic. I started with the articles provided by TingiesandTails, I then read through the references of said articles, found by CHANCE that the Prymak, McKee, Goldschmidt and Glickman article is cited quite a bit in other studies, and then skimmed a few additonal articles which use that citation.
Thats as far as I went!
I do feel there was enough stuff there that if someone was interested they could whip up quite a bit of interesting findings. I am simply not that interested, but advise folks to look up the Prymak, McKee, Goldschmidt and Glickman article and any articles which cite it. Its a good start and I provided the proper citation for this article. Whats being asked for here IS A LOT OF WORK, which I am certain nobody on this thread understands at all. Again, I am not simply looking up articles in a friggin "google search" and then providing links. If it was that simple I would have done it already.
Here it is one more time:
Prymak C, McKee LJ, Goldschmidt MH, Glickman LT.(1988) Epidemiologic, clinical, pathologic, and prognostic characteristics of splenic hemangiosarcoma and splenic hematoma in dogs: 217 cases (1985). Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association. 193(6):706-12.
Oh, BTW the University of Cambridge Veterinary School is doing a study on this very topic. Being aware of this fact I know the course of action I would take if I were to trying to get MORE info on such a topic.
Do any of you?
by oso on 10 August 2011 - 23:08
Yes, I know how to research and follow this up and I do appreciate all the time it takes. Its just that the original statement did seem quite far fetched and it would have been good to have more information about exactly what was said in those studies. Maybe I will look it up if I get time sometime soon......
by Silbersee on 11 August 2011 - 12:08
Tingies,
I really did not have time to read all your provided links but I did look at the German one as this is somewhat easier and more understandable for me than English. Not once is there a mention of the German Shepherd Breed. A Boxer female's DNA was used due to the fact that Boxers are a lot more inbred than other breeds and have therefore a limited genetic base (that statement is a quote from the study and not my opinion).
I do not have my Malcolm Willis book here at my old house as we are in the process of moving but I am pretty sure that there is no genetic difference between "tan" and the so-called "red" which by the way does not exist in SV terms. In Germany, it is simply called "braun" and that term is often used for tan as well. So, if some of the experts like Pod and MVF read this maybe they can clarify that subject.
Kari, again I am very sorry for your loss and I did not mean to offend you by questioning Tingies' statement. And yes, I am sure there is something like the "omerta rule" which is when people prefer not to talk about certain matters. However, I can honestly say that in my 20 plus years I have never heard that mentioned. Not even after the event at the beer table where usually a lot of things come out in the open. Most problems have a genetic cause and are prevelant in our breed, just like other diseases are prevelant in other breeds. The more linebreedings are done, the more will show up. And that holds true not only for certain cancers but also gastric torsion, mega-E and allergies. However, a lot of genetic predispositions' severities will depend on environmental matters. Therefore, I believe that a dog that is kept like a dog will have the best odds.
Jeck vom Noricum, together with his half-brother Zamb von der Wienerau stamped the current showline population. You can find either one or both of them in virtually every pedigree. All of them are profoundly inbred on Palme, Uran, the X-litter, and the Q-litter. When you go further back, you will get to the pilars Canto, Quando, and Mutz, and to a certain degree Marko. So where would you possibly find a nominator? All of them? Or if you go even further back, maybe to Vello Sieben Faulen, Axel vd Deininghauser Heide etc., so you can include the workinglines as well. All lines shared the same ancestry until about the Canto/Quando era.
Therefore, in my opinion it is better to concentrate on the immediate first and second generation in the pedigree.
I really did not have time to read all your provided links but I did look at the German one as this is somewhat easier and more understandable for me than English. Not once is there a mention of the German Shepherd Breed. A Boxer female's DNA was used due to the fact that Boxers are a lot more inbred than other breeds and have therefore a limited genetic base (that statement is a quote from the study and not my opinion).
I do not have my Malcolm Willis book here at my old house as we are in the process of moving but I am pretty sure that there is no genetic difference between "tan" and the so-called "red" which by the way does not exist in SV terms. In Germany, it is simply called "braun" and that term is often used for tan as well. So, if some of the experts like Pod and MVF read this maybe they can clarify that subject.
Kari, again I am very sorry for your loss and I did not mean to offend you by questioning Tingies' statement. And yes, I am sure there is something like the "omerta rule" which is when people prefer not to talk about certain matters. However, I can honestly say that in my 20 plus years I have never heard that mentioned. Not even after the event at the beer table where usually a lot of things come out in the open. Most problems have a genetic cause and are prevelant in our breed, just like other diseases are prevelant in other breeds. The more linebreedings are done, the more will show up. And that holds true not only for certain cancers but also gastric torsion, mega-E and allergies. However, a lot of genetic predispositions' severities will depend on environmental matters. Therefore, I believe that a dog that is kept like a dog will have the best odds.
Jeck vom Noricum, together with his half-brother Zamb von der Wienerau stamped the current showline population. You can find either one or both of them in virtually every pedigree. All of them are profoundly inbred on Palme, Uran, the X-litter, and the Q-litter. When you go further back, you will get to the pilars Canto, Quando, and Mutz, and to a certain degree Marko. So where would you possibly find a nominator? All of them? Or if you go even further back, maybe to Vello Sieben Faulen, Axel vd Deininghauser Heide etc., so you can include the workinglines as well. All lines shared the same ancestry until about the Canto/Quando era.
Therefore, in my opinion it is better to concentrate on the immediate first and second generation in the pedigree.
by Karmen Byrd on 11 August 2011 - 17:08
Kari,
Again my condolences for your loss. Below is an article I thought you may be interested in. Although there is no "proof" one way or the other on what really causes Hemangio it does give some food for thought. Since angiosarcoma is the human form and thought to be caused by toxins in the plastic and rubber industry I find that interesting since my dogs drink from water hoses and play with the rubber balls and toys over the years. My three dogs were all working lines, one sable with Hemangio in his heart (right atrium) and the other two solid black litter mates dying one month apart both in the spleen and liver. The two solid black dogs were 1/2 brother to my sable male. Does this mean a direct link to genetics or weird coincidence?? That i do not know but none of these dogs had any real medical issues up until then. Dante was 9, Bodie and Bonsai were 10.5. Their mother lived to be 14, their grandmother 13 and Dante's sister is still alive today and will be 14 in November. It is a devastating disease and I sympathize with you in your loss.
http://www.modianolab.org/cancer/cancer_hemangiosarcoma.shtml
Karmen
Again my condolences for your loss. Below is an article I thought you may be interested in. Although there is no "proof" one way or the other on what really causes Hemangio it does give some food for thought. Since angiosarcoma is the human form and thought to be caused by toxins in the plastic and rubber industry I find that interesting since my dogs drink from water hoses and play with the rubber balls and toys over the years. My three dogs were all working lines, one sable with Hemangio in his heart (right atrium) and the other two solid black litter mates dying one month apart both in the spleen and liver. The two solid black dogs were 1/2 brother to my sable male. Does this mean a direct link to genetics or weird coincidence?? That i do not know but none of these dogs had any real medical issues up until then. Dante was 9, Bodie and Bonsai were 10.5. Their mother lived to be 14, their grandmother 13 and Dante's sister is still alive today and will be 14 in November. It is a devastating disease and I sympathize with you in your loss.
http://www.modianolab.org/cancer/cancer_hemangiosarcoma.shtml
Karmen
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