Training Question - retrieve - Page 3

This is fast  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK-eUsUGr0E

Was searching for a couple of examples of dogs I knew with fast retrieves but just can't seem to locate them.  Found this one, but would be interested to see the example without vocal and movement help from the handler.

My dog did the same thing when the toy came into the picture.  I knew he dog understand what bring was so I held the ball out and threw the dummbell at my feet kicked it a little and told the dog to bring.  He caught on fairly fast.  

Sounds like you have more experience than I do.  The one thing I have found out is that the retrieve really does have to be about the individual dog.  You cant go by a standard rule.  Whatever you need to do for the individual dog.

I have only taught two dogs to retrieve but it took two completly different methods.  One was a natural retriever and am only working on speed....the other one was possesive and didnt want to bring anything to me.

Phil if you are referring to my link, please don't get caught up on speed, that video is over 6 months old and I personally am more concerned with consistent speed out and back than having a dog that can break the sound barrier doing a retrieve.  I have no videos of the same dog retrieving since then and that was the first retrieve over the jump (obviously there are many things that have been cleaned up - the jump is low, the handler is moving around, etc).  Also I have zero tolerance for chewing or the dumbbell appearing loose (like swinging side to side) as the dog carries or holds.  To me these things are more important than simply a dog sprinting out and back, that can be done easily enough.

Basically I do not like to teach the retrieve with all these extra things that need to be faded like extra verbal encouragement, running backwards, having to play games with a dumbbell just to get the dog to pick it up and keep hold of it.  Personally I like a well done forced retrieve or backchained retrieve without all that extra stuff going on.  Either the dog understands the behavior chain or he doesn't.  Many people use a ball reward or even having a helper with a sleeve and don't have problems with the dog dropping or chewing the dumbbell because the dog has been trained to understand the behavior.  He HAS to retrieve and hold the dumbbell properly before there is any rewards.  If I find that I need to run backwards or move my body to encourage the dog to come in correctly and close then it's clear to me I did not properly train the initial hold part of the behavior.  I don't like to take out a dumbbell until the dog already understands every piece of the retrieve (go out fast, pick up dumbbell properly, come back same speed, come in straight and close, hold dumbbell firmly with NO chewing).

This is the blueprint by which I train my retrieves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi9Yos8fhME

The trainer is Ismael de Vos.  I've just started a young dog with retrieves & in the beginning I put the ball under my chin & bring the dog in front present.  I hold out the dumbbell & ask him to take it. In the beginning all he has to do is touch the dumbbell to gain "click" & thus reward.  I follow this on by asking him to hold it longer & longer. 

Next stage is to ask him to hold in front then I step back & ask him to follow in & present it until no matter where I move to he comes in correct & presents!  This has only taken 3 weeks of working 3 times per week & I've now moved onto this stage shown in  the video!

I believe that its extremely important that the dog understands that the "click" sound brings reward NO MATTER WHAT so my advice is before you start to work with the clicker, be sure to spend the time teaching him that treat/reward follows "click"!

Ismael is with me in 2 weeks so I'll try & video & post the next step with my dog while he's here!

Also IMO the dumbbell should NEVER be seen by the dog as an object of prey/play!  The dumbbell is ONLY an item that the dog brings to you in order to obtain play/reward!

Good luck with the training!

Tom

My dog has issues similar to the OP. She runs off with the ball/hose and immediately drops it, wherever she is, when I call he back. My first dog learned very quickly that bringing the article back earned another reward.

I don't want to intrude on the O.P. asking for solutions. Just want to say thank you to those who have offered positive advice. Quite a few ideas to work on.

thanks,
Rik

Hmm .. i had this situation SOOO . my take.. 1. get away from so called techniques... 2. before one even starts you must know the essence of your dog, what it needs and wants .. that is how you going to connect with the dog. canines in general ... in short : do things with purposeness / motivations . your dog already told you he has possession / guards desires  .. that is his motivation..  once obtaining an item of his desire !! that is the framework you have to work in . your take is two fold : 1 create or ensure the desire for the dumbell and two to change the motivaton  and outlook of the dog : yes , you can do that with force [ not always suggested because if you go past a point you will ruin your goals] or you can the same by changing your communication to the dog so that it realizes to achieve his purposes /  his  needs , that is accomplished  by of bringing the item back ... I personally accomplish all of the latter without the dumbell first[ then latter replace an item with the dumbell] .. maybe a kong if  THAT is what the dog prefers... SO you can teach a dog to hold the kong and to release it as he sits in front of you [ you can use clicker training to shape this ]. then you can further shape this [ keep a the dog on leash to prevetn leaving you ] by placing the object on the ground , ask for a pick up - hold - release . later 1 foot away on the ground , to 2 then 3 etc etc. .. don;t go beyond untill the dog is ready fto advance as you shape. .. once i see a dog wanting to posses i never never give the dog an opportunoity to do it again . i will keep him on a line , not to control him but to communicate that his needs are met by bringing back the object to me . i can guide the dog a short distance using the line .. my interaction is based on certain principles pending knowing the dog , such as i communicate : " dog if you want to chase the ball . tug. kong .. then in order to chase you must bring back , " dog in order to play bite / tug work with me then you must bring back [ some dogs are motivated and the rewards is the chase , others the reward is to play tug of war , others it's a food treat . ], dog if you want to eat then you must bring back .. dog in order to go for a car  ride then you must bring back .. IF THE DOG DECIDES ITSELF  TO 'BRING BACK " then you have the exercise..find out what you dog needs .. then you can use that to shape his outlook and behavior.. dogs don't do things because we tell them !! they do so becuase it is in their interest . you must make your interst it's interest . last resort i wll do force retrieve .. but that most often leads a dog to perform to avoid pain and punishmnet. - a negative reinforcer at that ..

Again, if you are connecting pain and punishment to your dog's force retrieve,,,,,you are doing it wrong and should not use the technique in the future.

To me a forced retrieve is one that is an obedience command that can be corrected over (collar/leash correction).  Most high-drive dogs will grab things or retrieve them out of prey drive, but do you really want your dog viewing the dumbbell as a prey toy and chomping on it?  I would like it calm.  I first teach the word to bring things back to me in play, purely motivational-- the dog brings it back, we play a short struggle, and the dog wins, I'm introducing "bring".  Pretty soon they love bringing things to me.  You can also mark it with a clicker then food.  They also learn the "front" position heir or come.  But I think every dog must learn bring as a command.  Next step is taking objects from the hand like a dumbbell, opening their mouth and actively putting it on the dumbbell, using Premack Principle.  I do not use force for this and I do not use ear pinches.  My dog initially did not want to do retrieve of my actual hand.  I would put my hand in front of her mouth, sideways, and say "Bring."  That was difficult, but now she will take my hand and hold it, then I out her and she's very exited that she did it right.  For some dogs metal items are difficult, for others large items.  It's not a toy, it's a command to take it into your mouth and hold it.

Here is a couple of my vids of a dog doing a forced retrieve on keys and a penny, but you can see that "forced" does not mean the dog is not happy to do it, nor that you don't reward them.  It  is just something that is required and she will get a leash-collar correction if she does not retrieve.  It is not the same, as this is NOT a competition dog, it's a skittish rescue dog.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl9R_oXiwZ0

Now, if I wanted to speed up her retrieves, I would teach her that bringing it back fast would result in a game of tug.  If she grabbed the object, but did not bring it back, I would correct her for not coming back to me when called, I would say "Maybe I went too fast, and I need to go back to breaking this down more clearly".  That rescue dog can untie and take off shoes, pull someone in a wagon by fetching a leash attached, open doors that have ropes on the handle, on the "fetch" command.  I think you can strengthen a retrieve by using objects that the dog initially does not want to retrieve, like my hand for example.  Maybe I'm wrong.  With a sport dog, you have to be careful balancing it out so the dog has a very fast and happy retrieve, but it will come with time.

I am going to read all the other responses on here, and watch any vids, I'd love to learn more ideas and ways of doing better retrieves.  Thanks.

If you have a natural retriever, what happens if they aren't feeling very natural and think they have a choice to retrieve or not in competition under stress? Yeah, kiss the points or your exercise good bye on your retrieves.

The forced retrieve is so abused in dog training, because it requires patience, a lot of repetition as well as the ability to read the dog.  It's best if trainers are shown how to do it in person. I don't know how someone can learn it from a written word.

I like prey driven retrieve monsters.  It doesn't mean that s/he will mouth the dumbbell. For one, the dumbbell is not a toy. It's a totally separate exercise, the Hold.

Pain, punishment with the forced retrieve? Not when done correctly. It gets such a bad rap, like all kinds of training (and equipment) because people don't understand it and how to use it and train it.

 Back in the day, I trained a Sheltie with a forced retrieve. You use pain and punishment with a soft breed like that, it's a sorry situation and you are a sorry loser as well. I wish I had it on video, his speed, clean pickups and perfect holds. In fact, I wish there were more video examples on fast, correct retrieves. They are a beautiful sight.