No wonder Schutzhund people have a bad reputation - Page 5

Feather:

I began training for akc obedience with my second gsd in 2001.  I spent a few years training with AKC trainers and I can tell you they used more compulsion than motivation in their style then I learned training Molly in Schutzhund.  The AKC trainers basically had me correct Libby's drive right out of her.  I am not saying all AKC trainers are like this, but this was my first experience.  Libby had alot more drive than I or the AKC trainer knew what to do with.  When I got Molly I began training in Schutzhund and learned when it was appropriate to offer a timely correction but focused more so on motivational training.  Molly is not over the top, but I found in training certain exercises one good prong correction was much more effective than having her keep getting popped by the choke chain. My dog is not abused and just because I enjoy the sport of schutzhund does not mean I advocate abuse.  In the past 3 years I have seen 3 dogs be hung as you call it, but in all 3 cases these dogs were inflicting some serious hurt on their handlers because they were reacting to a leash correction.  What I also saw was the dog realized that going up on the leash to take a few bites out of their handler was not acceptable and never saw the same dog do it again.  Thus that type of correction is not something that happens all the time. 

I am not sure what you saw when you visited a schutzhund club, however as a newbie 3 years ago, I can tell you that I spent alot of time observing the sport before I ever decided to enjoy it with Molly.  When I learned more about the sport and the type of dogs that are required to perform well in it, some things that I was unsure of in the begining made more sense.   I have never been pressured by anyone I train with to put anything but an appropriate correction on my dog proportionally equalled to any infraction she may make.   All the people I train with take excellent care of their dogs.  There is no abuse going on just some good training. 


Cheryl

You have to keep in mind the creature we are discussing. And look how the same issue would be corrected but if the dog was with his actualy dog pack. The alpha  is not going to be nice. He is going to be clear and  precise.  And to stop beating around the bush he will give a one bit attack put the dog on his back and make sure he knows who is in control. I love dogs and hate to see them abused. but if you are weak with a strong dog that is abuse. These are not pink bunnies.

When training dogs, whatever their level of aggression is, yours better be one  step higher if you want their respect.  Obviously some take a harder correction to get through to them, it totally depends on the dog.

Some soft dogs just need a nasty look or a loud voice, however, many workinglines need alot more.  How can anyone sit back and yip without knowing the dog?


"These are not pink bunnies."


LOL, very true.

Jeff wrote: I do have a primer on housebreaking if you would like me to send it to you.

Well, at least I have the sense to ask for help when my highly trained service dog breaks his housetraining. And apparently I'm not the only one who's had this sort of thing happen after a move!

BTW, you DO realize that I was the one defending Kohler? I still have his book, as well as one he wrote on tracking.

As for helicoptering a dog, I had never heard the term until I heard it here, from other people who had seen it done. Sorry, no, I can't quote the exact thread. I think it might have happened during police training.

I also know several people who left schutzhund clubs because they couldn't stand to see the way shock collars were being abused by the members. And yes, I know there is a right way and a wrong way to use them. A friend of mine used one on her 130 lb. Shiloh male to stop him from going after other males. She's only 5 ft. tall, so a prong collar wasn't enough.

What am I trying to say? There are a lot of assholes and jerks out there who think that abusing a dog is all right if it's done in the name of training. On the other hand, there an equal number of idiots who think that using a prong collar on a high drive, 90 lb. dog is abusive.  I still stick with what I said in my original post: The true test of a trainer's skill is how little force he/she needs to properly train a dog.

Did you perhaps miss that most of my dogs have been adult GSD rescues, and that I've had to use force on some of them to convince them that I was the alpha? None of them were really bad actors that would come back up the leash at me, but the gal in my sig was a PITA to train. I learned a lot from her. She was so damn smart, she was always testing the rules. She would bite if a stranger got too much in her face, too, so we had to be careful with her around strangers and kids.

 Quote: As for helicoptering a dog, I had never heard the term until I heard it here, from other people who had seen it done. Sorry, no, I can't quote the exact thread.

Yet you were talking like you had first hand knowledge. Reading a thread doesn't count. Third hand info.

Quote: I also know several people who left schutzhund clubs because they couldn't stand to see the way shock collars were being abused by the members

Second hand information.

Quote:  I still stick with what I said in my original post: The true test of a trainer's skill is how little force he/she needs to properly train a dog.

But what they and you are not seeing, is that some dogs choose a different path. They only see the last part of the training, and not what led up to what they are seeing. 

LMFAO....many of the schutzhund people I know don't want to correct their dog because they're too afraid they going to "ruin the drive".

While I don't personally agree with hanging or "helicoptering" to resolve aggression, I don't use hugs and kisses either. I would dearly LOVE to see these people who cry about compulsion on the other end of the lead from a hard dog who does not see things your way. I'd buy a ticket, in fact.

"Sit. Sit. Sit. Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. Come on, sit. Sit." *chomp*

First... excellent posts by Yoshy, Jeff O., GSDfan. and a few others.

Sunsilver,..Unless you are actually training in PPD, PSD, Mondio, SchH, PSA, etc., don't try to force the treats, clicker, gentle leader and the various other pet obedience methods (when it comes to dealing with strong dogs) on those that are successfully training, working and competing with their dogs whether on the field or on the streets.

Keep this in mind... When you are training a hard, high drive dog to bite, protect, or otherwise take on a suspect, you must face the reality that there is a strong possibility that the dog will challenge you....not grumble, not show teeth, not just snap at you... but actually make a serious attempt to prove that "he" is the alpha. This cannot be taken lightly and some dogs need stronger corrections than others. From a trainers veiwpoint, you must know the dog and be able to read the dog in order to instruct the handler on how to correct the dog, not to mention how much of a correction should be applied. Teaching pet OB or AKC OB to a rescue is not the same as training that rescue to bite or to apprehend a human.

Anything could be deemed "abuse" by those that are not involved directly with the training and are watching from the sidelines or sitting behind their computer. I would suggest hands on knowledge before you argue your point. If you are not training in these venues,then you are not in a position to condemn those that do every day.

Yoschy,
Hey bro, I wasn't arguing or getting in to a pissing match with you. On the contrary, I was backing you up!
On the internet sometimes its hard to tell when someone is giving you a .
I was giving an answer to your question (used the example of the prong) that I don't think the "positive only" people could have given.
The food part I wrote about was only for general knowledge and not directed at anyone. Someone had hoped that this thread could be one about information and I was only offering some.
Sorry you misundertood all of that!

ogbs,

didnt think you were startn nothin. weve chatted plenty before. just wasnt sure where you were coming from.

no biggie.

I worked in a hospital for 36 years. Spent a lot of that time in the Emergency Room. Seen more dog bite victims than most people. Every one of those bites was from an unruly house pet that had become the household Alpha. Most of these low drive dogs were never trained or disciplined.

Koach
www.geraldguay.ca