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by flattracker on 01 September 2010 - 01:09
Sorry to add fuel to the fire, but i have to tell a story.
I live pretty close to jenni and couple of months ago, My fiance and myself took a ride out to meet jenni and her dogs.Im getting my first working line very soon and she was nice enough to allow us to come out and view her dogs and offer up some much needed education. Well, when we arrived, jen was on her driveway with her dogs and before we got out of the truck my fiance gave me that look that all men know and says " Oh, so this is the dog breeder youve been talking to" LOL. Thankfully my "bitch" isnt to jealous and territorial and after she got ahold of jennis son, everything else went out the window..haha. Ok, now we must stop this madness before jens head explodes..lol
by Jacko on 01 September 2010 - 01:09
It is all BS without videos....so I want to see you train those monkeys.
by Diane Jessup on 01 September 2010 - 01:09
LOL! That made me smile!
Jen, Over the years I've trained quite a few working GSD. I once managed a large GSD breeding/training kennel in the South. We supplied various police departments with dogs, and also the Tyson family with pp dogs. I've owned several, and appreciate the breed for what they are. Yours, by the way, in your avatar, takes my breath away everytime I look at him, BEAUTIFUL.
Yes, pit bulls have been bred to work VERY closely with man, in a very aroused state, and any tendency to turn on their owner or handler was culled out of the bloodline. They ARE soft as hell toward their handlers, something I appreciate. You just can't have a dog bred to bring a 1800 pound bull to its knees flying off the handle and attacking people. YOu can see how bad it is, now that the breed has been a "fad" breed for almost 30 years, with emphasis on idiots breeding for "guard work". Sigh.
I just want to point out that where "positive training" is so consistantly misunderstood is that NO NORMAL RED BLOODED DOG would chose a piece of hot dog over chasing a squirrel or getting in a dog fight! Of course not. It's the TRAINING (or better put, the shaping of behavior) that happens before that moment that controls the dog.
If that control is not shaped into the dog's behavior, then, no, of course it won't work. But lots and lots of people are doing it. And all I'm saying is THOSE are the people I admire. I think it would be a bit lame to say none of them (us) have dogs with high drives.
by Kalibeck on 01 September 2010 - 16:09
by Sunsilver on 01 September 2010 - 17:09
She recommends getting a dog really, really turned on to a toy or tug, by playing with it yourself, and pretending it is something very special, but you don't let the dog have it. I've watched Leerburg's video on building focus and drive, and the method described is similar to what he uses in the video. (I forget the name of the well-known Schutzhund trainer who is featured in that video.)
She allows leash corrections, but you don't HAVE to use them if y ou don't want to. I was certainly wishing the couple with this friggin' cocker spaniel would learn how to do an effective correction. Their dog would be a foot and a half away from them, and sniffing my dog's butt before they reacted!
She got into motivational and clicker training when she found traditional method didn't work with very soft dogs. She started out with Kohler.
What works with my dog: building her ability to focus on me at home. In the class where her attention is everywhere but on me, because she's so nervous and excited, I use praise. LOTS of praise, because she's too stressed to be interested in treats. Once she decides nothing bad is going to happen to her, she settles down, and will take treats from me but not anyone else. By the end of the 6 week course, she would also accept treats from the trainer and her helper.
Now, Jeff would tell me to have this dog PTS. I think a really skilled trainer knows how to work with ALL types of dogs. And this trainer DOES. She rehabilitates dogs with aggression issues that otherwise would be PTS. Within a few weeks, they are taking part in the obedience classes.
by HBFanatic on 01 September 2010 - 18:09
The reward that he gets after executing a desired behavior can be anything the animal cares about.
Toys, treats and heck if your dog thrives on praise, so be it.
The clicker is only a marker. Not a command, not a reward. Just a marker to mark one short point in time.
As far as an animal being annoyed by the clicker, I suppose there are some. But one, I think it is rare enough. And two, if I see annoyance in a dog with the clicker, if I look closer, it is usually because the handler is confusing to the dog. As all training methods, it has to make sense to both parties in order to have any success!
by Jenni78 on 01 September 2010 - 19:09
They're just different temperamentally, which is what we're trying to say. Sure, you can train them and train them and train them, and they can have near perfect OB, and as long as you catch them in the same split second when they are contemplating coming at you or someone else, you can stop it....but if you are even a split second off and they go from thinking about it to planning on doing it, in their minds, they're halfway there and you are really powerless to control them mentally at that point.
Yes, it's a handler mistake by then, but so what; what do you do? Ignore it and allow them to continue on that path? Or intervene physically in the interest of preventing tragedy? No brainer, to me.
Another thing you're not taking into account is the number of top GSDs that are purchased as adults (since the thread title involves SchH. people and their bad reputation); adults who have been trained a certain way, have extremely confident, sure temperaments who fully believe that they are the leader and who have zero respect for the guy who just got them off the plane. Do you allow them to kill anything in their path or attack you for every miscommunication while you retrain them w/food and try to bond with them? Sure, you develop a working relationship, but that can take a looong time with some of these dogs, depending on their individual temperament.
I know I'm drifting off on tangents, but I'm just trying to point out that there are many variables and to start a thread accusing a certain group of people of being abusive when you obviously know nothing of what they're up against at times is really ignorant. Sometimes a serious, physical correction is the only thing that will get through to a dog in a split second, and when dealing with certain dogs, a split second is all you get.
BTW, the dog in my avatar is my bitch, V Capri vom Hagenberg SchH1, KKL1. She says she'll take "breathtaking" but resents "he" with every fiber of her being.
by VomMarischal on 01 September 2010 - 23:09
by Myracle on 02 September 2010 - 00:09
A tug.
A stick.
A Kong.
Roughhousing.
Verbal praise.
Fetch.
A bite on the helper.
Every dog likes *something*.
by Don Corleone on 02 September 2010 - 00:09
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