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by oso on 09 June 2010 - 13:06
Actually I thought it was normal for the dog to be hit with the stick twice on the first (short) bite, then the dog is just threatened with the stick on the long bite? Can someone confirm this? Obviously the helper should know what he is doing and only hit on the flanks, not to hurt the dog, never on the head, neck, withers or muzzle. This once happened to female of mine, she had a great temperament and passed the bitework in numerous shows, no problem, I was never worried about presenting her. But she did fail once. She bit the sleeve hard then cried out loud in pain as she was hit with the stick, she let go, backed off, then went to re-bite but the judge already failed her. When we replayed the video she was actually hit across the head and it must have hurt. I think (hope) it was just a mistake on the part of the helper. Here, (Ecuador) the dogs over 24 months have to bite in all shows, not just the sieger, eg we just had a show this weekend, of 9 males 2 failed and of 8 females two failed (here they do not have to release to pass, just bite confidently), I would consider this failure rate about normal, they are always hit twice with the stick, but not to hurt them. From what has been said here I would question the qualifications and experience of the helpers??
by sparky71 on 09 June 2010 - 13:06
Albert,
You started the debate when you publicly named dogs with high reputations troughout the world in our breed that failed the bitework at this event, you are the first person to come out and print the names of these dogs and furthermore you chose to be very economic with your details behind the reasons as to why they may have failed, i would have had no problem with you had you named all the dogs that failed the bitework including a dog you didnt name who you have close connections to....
Albert no matter how you dress it now you chose to be selective with the names of the dogs you put into the public domain which failed the bitework, it wasnt an exhaustive list for you to name them all...whatever your aganda i am personally very disappointed that you took the view you did and chose the avenue you did to have your 5 mins of fame..
If you have been to as many sieger shows as i have been to you over the years you would not have been so quick as to have apportioned blame to the dogs failing their bites on this particular occassion, i can assure you i have never been to a sieger show ever where the dogs were struck with a stick in the way our dogs were hit last weekend.....As a member of the SV for 21 years as i am this year i have decided to write to the SV this evening to voice my concerns as to how the bitework was conducted at this event....and to request that they formally investigate the matters from that day in its totallity.
Regards
Mark
You started the debate when you publicly named dogs with high reputations troughout the world in our breed that failed the bitework at this event, you are the first person to come out and print the names of these dogs and furthermore you chose to be very economic with your details behind the reasons as to why they may have failed, i would have had no problem with you had you named all the dogs that failed the bitework including a dog you didnt name who you have close connections to....
Albert no matter how you dress it now you chose to be selective with the names of the dogs you put into the public domain which failed the bitework, it wasnt an exhaustive list for you to name them all...whatever your aganda i am personally very disappointed that you took the view you did and chose the avenue you did to have your 5 mins of fame..
If you have been to as many sieger shows as i have been to you over the years you would not have been so quick as to have apportioned blame to the dogs failing their bites on this particular occassion, i can assure you i have never been to a sieger show ever where the dogs were struck with a stick in the way our dogs were hit last weekend.....As a member of the SV for 21 years as i am this year i have decided to write to the SV this evening to voice my concerns as to how the bitework was conducted at this event....and to request that they formally investigate the matters from that day in its totallity.
Regards
Mark
by oso on 09 June 2010 - 13:06
Hopefully it was all filmed and the footage can be replayed to see exactly what the helpers did. Something must have been going on for so many dogs to fail- I just can't believe they all have weak temperaments......
by LBMT on 09 June 2010 - 13:06
The GSA went down hill when John Buckley retired or was pushed out, not sure of the case, maybe some one could put some light on this,
But it is no secret the John Buckley took the breed out of the dark ages and into the future for it to be ruined buy a new committee that care nothing for the conformation of the breed,
Membership fees and your bank details, for you monthly withdrawal whether you train or not seems to be there quest for the future now
I’m sure John Buckley hates to see the club he has built with others of coarse go as bad as this,
Maybe Fintan Lalor can make a statement on here and tell us how he is going to save our breed. He is now President of the GSA the guardians of our breed here in Ireland,
He will probably calm it is clubs business and not ours the people who have worked for years,
Or will he do as he has done all year, hide behind a rock and come out the day of the show with a statement that he and Cedric a guy I lost all respect for in the time it took to make the speech.
I am god. Now bow to me I’m guardians of YOUR breed,
But it is no secret the John Buckley took the breed out of the dark ages and into the future for it to be ruined buy a new committee that care nothing for the conformation of the breed,
Membership fees and your bank details, for you monthly withdrawal whether you train or not seems to be there quest for the future now
I’m sure John Buckley hates to see the club he has built with others of coarse go as bad as this,
Maybe Fintan Lalor can make a statement on here and tell us how he is going to save our breed. He is now President of the GSA the guardians of our breed here in Ireland,
He will probably calm it is clubs business and not ours the people who have worked for years,
Or will he do as he has done all year, hide behind a rock and come out the day of the show with a statement that he and Cedric a guy I lost all respect for in the time it took to make the speech.
I am god. Now bow to me I’m guardians of YOUR breed,
by Penny on 09 June 2010 - 14:06
From a novice:
I watched the dogs protection from dog one. With dog one, the blows were hard enough for the crowd to take a gasp, and some loudly, including myself. I am novice, but have been to various Sch.h. clubs and seen dogs worked, and worked my own dog, albeit I am a hindrance to her I am sure at the moment rather than a confident handler.
This did not change for dog two, every dog was hit hard, and from the above post, some not in the right place every time, at least three dogs were hit across the side chest & loin area, as I had been beginning to watch carefully by this time.....and I was beginning to think that it was because they were very near to the crowd that it sounded and looked so much. I also wondered when one dog was hit along the kidney area was this correct !!
. . when the black Optikas dog came out,quite honestly, if you had hit him with a barge pole, he worked like he would not have come off.... thats working dog breeding with experienced handler. It looked fantastic and I am sure we all wished that our dogs were working like that.
There lies the difference at the moment. I am very very sure that - shall we call ourselves "show people" - will step up to the mark and be working their dogs confidently, and their dogs will flourish and get better and better IF THEY ARE ENCOURAGED TO DO SO - however, there were very good dogs there that would no doubt work well, that I feel were not encouraged to pass that test at all. No one is asking for special concession, but its all about good sense and caring about the furtherence of the GSD both in construction (showing) and working ability (working).
I am sure that the owner of the Optikas dog would have looked at his dog and seen that constructionally, although a very nice dog, he was not quite up to the mark of the top VA dog, and I am sure in the reverse the top VA dog owner would have looked at the black dog and liked his dog to have that tenacity..... this is where we must all help each olther and meet.
I didnt even give a thought to entering my girl in the protection phase even when I had seen the dogs go through it, because by this time, certain dogs had passed it, and she has worked well - but I did chicken out myself, as I knew she would need all of everything she had to do a really good hard protection round, and perhaps my partner could keep her focused better than I with her.... in the event, she went in immediately working females were called for the protection phase, and did her bit. I wasnt happy with what I saw, as it was totally different to the practice which I did with her, but I was totally happy with her reaction. She took the strikes, and they were good ones, and she held on, until what was the last moment before she was called out. When she came off the sleeve, she stood barking at the handler, and in no way backed away.... again... that pleased me for what I know, but she obviously hadnt taken a good enough grip - and people were telling me that it was held very low to her. Was I dissappointed, course I was, but pleased with her that she stood up to the challenge and went in well.
Then I look at the Optikas dog, a commited handler, working his dog well, and the dog that was bred to work primarily, and he wouldnt have cared where that helper put the sleeve, he would have been on it.
I have a beautiful well constructed Champion female who works well - the owner of the Optikas dog has a very good dog that works brilliantly, and gets pleasure from his hobby too - we need to get things into perspective. We need to work at it fro
I watched the dogs protection from dog one. With dog one, the blows were hard enough for the crowd to take a gasp, and some loudly, including myself. I am novice, but have been to various Sch.h. clubs and seen dogs worked, and worked my own dog, albeit I am a hindrance to her I am sure at the moment rather than a confident handler.
This did not change for dog two, every dog was hit hard, and from the above post, some not in the right place every time, at least three dogs were hit across the side chest & loin area, as I had been beginning to watch carefully by this time.....and I was beginning to think that it was because they were very near to the crowd that it sounded and looked so much. I also wondered when one dog was hit along the kidney area was this correct !!
. . when the black Optikas dog came out,quite honestly, if you had hit him with a barge pole, he worked like he would not have come off.... thats working dog breeding with experienced handler. It looked fantastic and I am sure we all wished that our dogs were working like that.
There lies the difference at the moment. I am very very sure that - shall we call ourselves "show people" - will step up to the mark and be working their dogs confidently, and their dogs will flourish and get better and better IF THEY ARE ENCOURAGED TO DO SO - however, there were very good dogs there that would no doubt work well, that I feel were not encouraged to pass that test at all. No one is asking for special concession, but its all about good sense and caring about the furtherence of the GSD both in construction (showing) and working ability (working).
I am sure that the owner of the Optikas dog would have looked at his dog and seen that constructionally, although a very nice dog, he was not quite up to the mark of the top VA dog, and I am sure in the reverse the top VA dog owner would have looked at the black dog and liked his dog to have that tenacity..... this is where we must all help each olther and meet.
I didnt even give a thought to entering my girl in the protection phase even when I had seen the dogs go through it, because by this time, certain dogs had passed it, and she has worked well - but I did chicken out myself, as I knew she would need all of everything she had to do a really good hard protection round, and perhaps my partner could keep her focused better than I with her.... in the event, she went in immediately working females were called for the protection phase, and did her bit. I wasnt happy with what I saw, as it was totally different to the practice which I did with her, but I was totally happy with her reaction. She took the strikes, and they were good ones, and she held on, until what was the last moment before she was called out. When she came off the sleeve, she stood barking at the handler, and in no way backed away.... again... that pleased me for what I know, but she obviously hadnt taken a good enough grip - and people were telling me that it was held very low to her. Was I dissappointed, course I was, but pleased with her that she stood up to the challenge and went in well.
Then I look at the Optikas dog, a commited handler, working his dog well, and the dog that was bred to work primarily, and he wouldnt have cared where that helper put the sleeve, he would have been on it.
I have a beautiful well constructed Champion female who works well - the owner of the Optikas dog has a very good dog that works brilliantly, and gets pleasure from his hobby too - we need to get things into perspective. We need to work at it fro
by Ally B on 09 June 2010 - 15:06
Mark
GROW UP ! If you read what I was saying without the blinkers on it was in context of the quality not being entered at the show . Fact is for whatever reason you chose , Wilson failed the bite work at this show. Like you say dogs are not robots & we all have off days You can blame the helpers if you want , but one of those helpers has forgot more about working dogs than even your 21 years attending a sieger show has taught you. This was a PUBLIC event ! Names are in the PUBLIC domain . As in the sieger show names of failures are made PUBLIC . I dont need 5 minutes of fame & I certainley have no grudge against the owners or the dogs concerned .If you want to continue this either phone me or speak to me personally the next time you see me
Regards
Ally
GROW UP ! If you read what I was saying without the blinkers on it was in context of the quality not being entered at the show . Fact is for whatever reason you chose , Wilson failed the bite work at this show. Like you say dogs are not robots & we all have off days You can blame the helpers if you want , but one of those helpers has forgot more about working dogs than even your 21 years attending a sieger show has taught you. This was a PUBLIC event ! Names are in the PUBLIC domain . As in the sieger show names of failures are made PUBLIC . I dont need 5 minutes of fame & I certainley have no grudge against the owners or the dogs concerned .If you want to continue this either phone me or speak to me personally the next time you see me
Regards
Ally
by sparky71 on 09 June 2010 - 15:06
Seems i struck a nerve with a certain somebody....
Bump.
Bump.
by DANOLI on 09 June 2010 - 15:06
This bickering serves no real purpose lads...... However from what i hear it does seem on the face of it that the dogs were tested harder than they should have been. In my opinion there is no place for excessive force or cruelty of any kind to a dog wether it is to prove how hard or soft they are or any other reason.
by sparky71 on 09 June 2010 - 15:06
Albert
For what ever reason you are so disgruntled by my comments that you are now making personal comments about my maturity and my experience in the breed.
I never questioned any helpers experience, it was questioned by OSO, and i replied that i presumed that all were experienced and held licences, and in any case i went on to say that it was an issue for the GSA and not me..... FACT
I did however question the actions taken by the helper on the day,, in a breed sieger show event, this type of heavy contact on an animal with the stick is never seen,, that much i do know... from a personal point of view it was distressing to see Wilson caned in that way as im sure the owners of the other dogs who suffered the same fate and spectators alike will agree.... Im am not blaming the helper personally i am blaming the people behind the decision being made to treat the dogs in this way, and the instructions that were given to the helper, it made for distressing viewing from the gallery of spectators as has been previously posted here. It has certainly harmed the reputation of the event and the hobby as a whole in theis country.
As regards the public naming of Wilson for failing his bitework, as i previously posted, i would have had no problem with you, the GSA or anyone else had they named all the dogs that failed and not to single out a certain few, i took exception to certain dogs being singled out and for your faiilure in stating the full details and facts relating to the quality dogs who failed, the list is small and still the identities of the other dogs is unknown.
In fact i feel it should have been posted on the GSA website the names of the dogs that failed but who took part in the protection test. Fairness and transparency is all that is asked.
rEGARDS
Mark
For what ever reason you are so disgruntled by my comments that you are now making personal comments about my maturity and my experience in the breed.
I never questioned any helpers experience, it was questioned by OSO, and i replied that i presumed that all were experienced and held licences, and in any case i went on to say that it was an issue for the GSA and not me..... FACT
I did however question the actions taken by the helper on the day,, in a breed sieger show event, this type of heavy contact on an animal with the stick is never seen,, that much i do know... from a personal point of view it was distressing to see Wilson caned in that way as im sure the owners of the other dogs who suffered the same fate and spectators alike will agree.... Im am not blaming the helper personally i am blaming the people behind the decision being made to treat the dogs in this way, and the instructions that were given to the helper, it made for distressing viewing from the gallery of spectators as has been previously posted here. It has certainly harmed the reputation of the event and the hobby as a whole in theis country.
As regards the public naming of Wilson for failing his bitework, as i previously posted, i would have had no problem with you, the GSA or anyone else had they named all the dogs that failed and not to single out a certain few, i took exception to certain dogs being singled out and for your faiilure in stating the full details and facts relating to the quality dogs who failed, the list is small and still the identities of the other dogs is unknown.
In fact i feel it should have been posted on the GSA website the names of the dogs that failed but who took part in the protection test. Fairness and transparency is all that is asked.
rEGARDS
Mark
by Ally B on 09 June 2010 - 16:06
Mark
Can you not understand ? For the last time the original reply was to David Payne. He queried the quality of the dogs entered. The reply & subsequent naming of certain dogs was not to criticise but to merely point out that there was QUALITY entered but unfortunately you for what ever reason have taken it as a personal attack
Regards
Ally
Can you not understand ? For the last time the original reply was to David Payne. He queried the quality of the dogs entered. The reply & subsequent naming of certain dogs was not to criticise but to merely point out that there was QUALITY entered but unfortunately you for what ever reason have taken it as a personal attack
Regards
Ally
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