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by AmbiiGSD on 19 February 2010 - 19:02
Can someone please tell me, WHO exactly it is that says a Cow Hocked dog is unsound?
(Sorry i think I speed read past that bit)
Karen
(Sorry i think I speed read past that bit)
Karen
by peterlee on 19 February 2010 - 19:02
Dear Jemima,
The heart of the dispute between the GSD community in the UK and the Kennel Club is that the GSD community wants the breed to be shown and bred according to international WUSV standards whereas the Kennel Club sets its face against it.
The home of this breed is in Germany. Breeders in this country attend shows there. They know how the breed is bred and shown there. They aspire to the have the same standard here. The German standard for the breed is the international standard and it is not for nothing that GSDs bred and shown according to the German system are admired and used throughout the world. They are working dogs. They are not cripples. It is the KC which is responsible for the state of the GSD in the UK.
Let me explain the difference between the WUSV system and the Kennel Club system to you. (Pace all of you who know much more about this than I do and bear with me if I over simplify)
The Kennel Club system
You can register any dog with a KC pedigree provided
(1) Both mother and father are KC registered for the same breed.
(2) Both mother and father are between the ages of 1 and 8.
(3) The mother has not had more than 6 litters.
(4) Certain very close matings (father/daughter etc) are prohibited.
That’s it. No health checks. Zilch.
And to become a Kennel Club ‘Champion’ (these wonderful CCs) the same criteria apply. No health checks but you must win some shows.
The German system
You cannot register a puppy with a ‘pink paper’ pedigree unless both of its parents meet the following criteria
1. They must be tattooed and microchipped for identification.
2. They must be DNA tested to ensure that the parents are who they are said to be.
3. They must be X-rayed not before 12 months of age and have results acceptable for breeding for hips and elbows.
4. Not before 16 months of age they must pass an endurance and fitness test of running for 20 kilometres (an AD test).
5. Not before 12 months of age they must pass a comprehensive test of obedience, sureness with people, other animals and traffic and a temperament test (a BH test).
6. Not before 18 months of age they must gain at a public trial a sc hutzhundof at least Schutzhund 1 (SchH 1). The trial has three parts, namely, (1) obedience, (2) tracking and (3) protection. The dog must pass all three parts which also include a temperament test and a gunshot test of steadiness. The protection phase of the trial is an exacting test of the dog’s character.
7. Not before 12 months the dog must be awarded at a public show a grade of at least ‘G’ (‘good’). The grades of ‘SG’ (‘very good’) or ‘V’ (‘excellent’) are also acceptable. So is ‘VA’ (‘excellent select’) but a dog is likely to passed a breed survey long before receiving this much prized title.
8. Finally the dog must pass a Breed Survey conducted by an experienced judge and must receive either Körklasse 1 (‘recommended for breeding’) or Körklasse 2 (‘suitable for breeding’). In order to be eligible to take part in the breed survey the dog must have satisfied requirements 1 to 7 inclusive above. Satisfying requirements 1 to 7 does not entitle the dog to pass the breed survey. That is independently assessed. The character of the dog as well as its physical characteristics are assessed at a breed survey. In particular its courage is tested. Dogs which do not pass the Breed Survey with either Körklasse 1 or 2 are not regarded as suitable for breeding and their progeny will not be granted the pink pedigree papers.
Shows in Germany and in all other countries which follow the German system involve dogs which have
The heart of the dispute between the GSD community in the UK and the Kennel Club is that the GSD community wants the breed to be shown and bred according to international WUSV standards whereas the Kennel Club sets its face against it.
The home of this breed is in Germany. Breeders in this country attend shows there. They know how the breed is bred and shown there. They aspire to the have the same standard here. The German standard for the breed is the international standard and it is not for nothing that GSDs bred and shown according to the German system are admired and used throughout the world. They are working dogs. They are not cripples. It is the KC which is responsible for the state of the GSD in the UK.
Let me explain the difference between the WUSV system and the Kennel Club system to you. (Pace all of you who know much more about this than I do and bear with me if I over simplify)
The Kennel Club system
You can register any dog with a KC pedigree provided
(1) Both mother and father are KC registered for the same breed.
(2) Both mother and father are between the ages of 1 and 8.
(3) The mother has not had more than 6 litters.
(4) Certain very close matings (father/daughter etc) are prohibited.
That’s it. No health checks. Zilch.
And to become a Kennel Club ‘Champion’ (these wonderful CCs) the same criteria apply. No health checks but you must win some shows.
The German system
You cannot register a puppy with a ‘pink paper’ pedigree unless both of its parents meet the following criteria
1. They must be tattooed and microchipped for identification.
2. They must be DNA tested to ensure that the parents are who they are said to be.
3. They must be X-rayed not before 12 months of age and have results acceptable for breeding for hips and elbows.
4. Not before 16 months of age they must pass an endurance and fitness test of running for 20 kilometres (an AD test).
5. Not before 12 months of age they must pass a comprehensive test of obedience, sureness with people, other animals and traffic and a temperament test (a BH test).
6. Not before 18 months of age they must gain at a public trial a sc hutzhundof at least Schutzhund 1 (SchH 1). The trial has three parts, namely, (1) obedience, (2) tracking and (3) protection. The dog must pass all three parts which also include a temperament test and a gunshot test of steadiness. The protection phase of the trial is an exacting test of the dog’s character.
7. Not before 12 months the dog must be awarded at a public show a grade of at least ‘G’ (‘good’). The grades of ‘SG’ (‘very good’) or ‘V’ (‘excellent’) are also acceptable. So is ‘VA’ (‘excellent select’) but a dog is likely to passed a breed survey long before receiving this much prized title.
8. Finally the dog must pass a Breed Survey conducted by an experienced judge and must receive either Körklasse 1 (‘recommended for breeding’) or Körklasse 2 (‘suitable for breeding’). In order to be eligible to take part in the breed survey the dog must have satisfied requirements 1 to 7 inclusive above. Satisfying requirements 1 to 7 does not entitle the dog to pass the breed survey. That is independently assessed. The character of the dog as well as its physical characteristics are assessed at a breed survey. In particular its courage is tested. Dogs which do not pass the Breed Survey with either Körklasse 1 or 2 are not regarded as suitable for breeding and their progeny will not be granted the pink pedigree papers.
Shows in Germany and in all other countries which follow the German system involve dogs which have
by peterlee on 19 February 2010 - 19:02
Shows in Germany and in all other countries which follow the German system involve dogs which have satisfied these basic requirements. The highest level of show grade has stiffer requirements.
Now tell me which is the system better designed to produce GSDs ‘fit for purpose’? What the GSD community in this country is trying to do is to get the Kennel Club to impose at least some basic standards.
And, no, penalizing a dog at a show for ‘unsoundness’ is not a step in that direction at all. If the Kennel Club was serious about improving the health of the breed in the UK it could do that quite simply by saying, ‘We will not award the title of Champion to any dog which does not have satisfactory scores for hips, elbows etc’. Instead it wants to make the GSD community require its express permission to organize events which are run according to international standards while it wants to continue to award the title of Champion to dogs which meet no health or fitness for purpose criteria at all.
If you do not really understand what it is that the GSD community is fighting for here then you are right that you cannot help. One way or another we will get these standards for the GSD in the UK regardless of the Kennel Club because we all care passionately about this breed.
Now tell me which is the system better designed to produce GSDs ‘fit for purpose’? What the GSD community in this country is trying to do is to get the Kennel Club to impose at least some basic standards.
And, no, penalizing a dog at a show for ‘unsoundness’ is not a step in that direction at all. If the Kennel Club was serious about improving the health of the breed in the UK it could do that quite simply by saying, ‘We will not award the title of Champion to any dog which does not have satisfactory scores for hips, elbows etc’. Instead it wants to make the GSD community require its express permission to organize events which are run according to international standards while it wants to continue to award the title of Champion to dogs which meet no health or fitness for purpose criteria at all.
If you do not really understand what it is that the GSD community is fighting for here then you are right that you cannot help. One way or another we will get these standards for the GSD in the UK regardless of the Kennel Club because we all care passionately about this breed.
by missbeeb on 19 February 2010 - 19:02
Jemima, was it a high speed, hi-def camera that was used for PDE? I think any animal (us included) may look a little odd when filmed, then slowed down like you suggest. What's wrong with seeing the dogs and filming with a regular camera? If our dogs are as unsound as you think, there will be no problem spotting it!
Whatever happens, I am certain that we will now let the KC keep its' tickets where the monkey keeps its' nuts. We will move on and other breeds will follow.
by Blerio on 19 February 2010 - 21:02
Peterlee, say's, "And, no" penalizing a dog at a show for "unsoundness" is not a step in the right direction at all. Then what is!! Dogs win and loose a class on the move, If you're pulled out first place, the only way is backwards, if the movement is incorrect. Thats the problem with some of the judges, I think they fear upsetting people! These people should never judge. I despair with some of the comments on this site. GOD help us!!!!!!!!!!! Bill Owen.
by Skippy on 19 February 2010 - 21:02
Peterlee
May I commend your concise summing up of the differences between the (non) requirements of our KC,and the requirements of most of the rest of the world,to be able to breed,show and work our wonderful Shepherds.
The KC will not cut their own throats (financially) by agreeing to mandatory health tests with disqualifying limits,that is very clear now for everyone to see.
I have great hopes for the future of our breed,let 2010 be the long awaited start of a new era for the German Shepherd in Great Britain.
by nugget on 19 February 2010 - 22:02
Hi Bill; long time no speak hope you are well
You have a point. Twenty years ago soundness behind was a talking point in the International type dog and many believed at the time that some judges paid lip service to this aspect of assessment of dynamic in the pursuit of free flowing extended gait and correct topline- so not a lot would appear to have changed.
Think, perhaps, we should look at in context; it is an issue with our breed that must be considered and can be improved; from my perspective as an enthusiast of the GSD as a working dog, however, it would sit behind improvement of character and temperament in show stock, and a drive to return to a more correct overall size. (I accept this is anecdotal and also restricted to my recently rare visits to Champ Shows)
Whatever our genuine concerns, nevertheless, the GSD remains the working dog and general companion choice for thousands of people. This is due to its suitability as a consequence of excellent trainability, longevity in terms of working life span and general resilience. We should not forget this, in spite of all the problems. It is the damming evidence, when the serious and de-habilitating health issues of other breed are considered, that the KC has got it wrong and, I believe, is acting from motives unknown when singling out our breed in the manner that has occurred.
This breed has (and I believe always has had) the wherewithal to influence its own destiny in the UK. Its leaders have the knowledge, gravitas and enthusiasm to succeed very well away from the umbrella of the KC. It is a question of will, determination and unity. I hope these will prevail.
Chris B
You have a point. Twenty years ago soundness behind was a talking point in the International type dog and many believed at the time that some judges paid lip service to this aspect of assessment of dynamic in the pursuit of free flowing extended gait and correct topline- so not a lot would appear to have changed.
Think, perhaps, we should look at in context; it is an issue with our breed that must be considered and can be improved; from my perspective as an enthusiast of the GSD as a working dog, however, it would sit behind improvement of character and temperament in show stock, and a drive to return to a more correct overall size. (I accept this is anecdotal and also restricted to my recently rare visits to Champ Shows)
Whatever our genuine concerns, nevertheless, the GSD remains the working dog and general companion choice for thousands of people. This is due to its suitability as a consequence of excellent trainability, longevity in terms of working life span and general resilience. We should not forget this, in spite of all the problems. It is the damming evidence, when the serious and de-habilitating health issues of other breed are considered, that the KC has got it wrong and, I believe, is acting from motives unknown when singling out our breed in the manner that has occurred.
This breed has (and I believe always has had) the wherewithal to influence its own destiny in the UK. Its leaders have the knowledge, gravitas and enthusiasm to succeed very well away from the umbrella of the KC. It is a question of will, determination and unity. I hope these will prevail.
Chris B
by Penny on 20 February 2010 - 01:02
Dear Jemima,
I have never met you - so forgive now my bluntness in pursuing the fact that many of the GSD fraternity dont trust your involvement in case you turn it to your own devices as a journalist. My friends will probably say I am mad,
However, if you can promise me publicly that you will not try to trick, that your cameras will bring together a working dog, and a "alsation" you can use my Champion female Champion Mascani Odessa as your correct specimen. I dont think there are many that have said bad about her, and there has never been any controversy about her as far as I know - which is what you are asking for..
You can film her movement. You can choose your speeds - she is not only the Kennel Clubs idea of a Champion, she is also qualified Sch.h.1. BH AD and Breed Survey Class 1 in the UK. and is very shortly taking her Koerung.She has a Hip Score of 4: 4 A Stamp and Elbows Clear. She is also a specimen of the correct type that I havent heard bad comments put about for - so she has I think, and hope, a clean record with the GSD showing fraternity, which is what you are asking for.
I must ask who are the "experts" that you would use to assess the film afterwards?
Now - my part of the deal is this. It will be done fairly, it will be reported fairly, and she will not be put up as a cripple because your camera men and tech guys are more clever than her firm and straight movement. I will need a signed undertaking from your team that you will not use this film without my express permission for any further programmes or events.
I will also request that I have a camera-man/team there, and that you will allow me to have a copy of your filming and your guys can have a copy of mine if they wish.
I will also wish that the correct GSD - the working GSD and the Alsation do the AD together. This will involve the dog pacing for 20k at the side of a bicycle on a safe and flat venue. At the end of that, they will be expected to do a short span of obedience work at the handlers side, and then they can be filmed again by your team for soundness - if all three are still on their feet. That should sort out the unsound from the sound should it not?
. They will have a veterinary check at given intervals, as comforming to the AD proper - You say that you will need to slow your film right down for it to become evident. Doesnt that say that it is not the eye opener to Joe public that you above say it is, for them to be able to "see" our faults in the showring? Surely if you have to slow the film down to see it, how is it so bad and evident. I have seen dogs in the ring that you didnt need to slow a camera down to identify as loose in movement - they are the ones that we should concern ourselves with.... or am I wrong.
Yes, I`ll be nervous, bloody nervous, but not about my dogs ability for true and straight movement - , of the way in which she could be portrayed - however, if I get an assurance from you that this is not going to be a trick, then I will go with it. I will do this, to hear your team say that the international, correct GSD is not crippled with unsound movement per sae.
Then, we can all see why I am so incensed, that as a kennel that has not got a problem with unsound dogs like many hundreds of others in the UK - we are being tarred with the myth that the KC have come up with to satisfy their greedy needs on still gaining registrations because this loose word of unsoundness has no mandatory test to qualify any of us saying dont register the pups then...! Its safe for the Kennel Club and they can still swill their empty promises around of Fit For Life being addressed by th
I have never met you - so forgive now my bluntness in pursuing the fact that many of the GSD fraternity dont trust your involvement in case you turn it to your own devices as a journalist. My friends will probably say I am mad,
However, if you can promise me publicly that you will not try to trick, that your cameras will bring together a working dog, and a "alsation" you can use my Champion female Champion Mascani Odessa as your correct specimen. I dont think there are many that have said bad about her, and there has never been any controversy about her as far as I know - which is what you are asking for..
You can film her movement. You can choose your speeds - she is not only the Kennel Clubs idea of a Champion, she is also qualified Sch.h.1. BH AD and Breed Survey Class 1 in the UK. and is very shortly taking her Koerung.She has a Hip Score of 4: 4 A Stamp and Elbows Clear. She is also a specimen of the correct type that I havent heard bad comments put about for - so she has I think, and hope, a clean record with the GSD showing fraternity, which is what you are asking for.
I must ask who are the "experts" that you would use to assess the film afterwards?
Now - my part of the deal is this. It will be done fairly, it will be reported fairly, and she will not be put up as a cripple because your camera men and tech guys are more clever than her firm and straight movement. I will need a signed undertaking from your team that you will not use this film without my express permission for any further programmes or events.
I will also request that I have a camera-man/team there, and that you will allow me to have a copy of your filming and your guys can have a copy of mine if they wish.
I will also wish that the correct GSD - the working GSD and the Alsation do the AD together. This will involve the dog pacing for 20k at the side of a bicycle on a safe and flat venue. At the end of that, they will be expected to do a short span of obedience work at the handlers side, and then they can be filmed again by your team for soundness - if all three are still on their feet. That should sort out the unsound from the sound should it not?
. They will have a veterinary check at given intervals, as comforming to the AD proper - You say that you will need to slow your film right down for it to become evident. Doesnt that say that it is not the eye opener to Joe public that you above say it is, for them to be able to "see" our faults in the showring? Surely if you have to slow the film down to see it, how is it so bad and evident. I have seen dogs in the ring that you didnt need to slow a camera down to identify as loose in movement - they are the ones that we should concern ourselves with.... or am I wrong.
Yes, I`ll be nervous, bloody nervous, but not about my dogs ability for true and straight movement - , of the way in which she could be portrayed - however, if I get an assurance from you that this is not going to be a trick, then I will go with it. I will do this, to hear your team say that the international, correct GSD is not crippled with unsound movement per sae.
Then, we can all see why I am so incensed, that as a kennel that has not got a problem with unsound dogs like many hundreds of others in the UK - we are being tarred with the myth that the KC have come up with to satisfy their greedy needs on still gaining registrations because this loose word of unsoundness has no mandatory test to qualify any of us saying dont register the pups then...! Its safe for the Kennel Club and they can still swill their empty promises around of Fit For Life being addressed by th
by Penny on 20 February 2010 - 01:02
I am very interested in your paragraph Jemima....
Next week there's a stakeholder meeting (KC, Dogs Trust, BVA, RSPCA etc) at which a very key issue will be discussed. Bateson has recommended the setting up of an independent Advisory Council. The KC responded with "oh, no need to do that... We'll expand the old Dog Health + Welfare Strategy Group into the new Dog Health Group, taken on new experts and, hey, with an independent chair, let US host it... just think of all the money you'll save!"
We should get a letter together signed en bloc and agreed by our majority to these people - in the hope that they can see the deceitful way in which the KC will try to pull the wool over their eyes. I would suggest the post above from Peterlee is the one to go with, its clear, concise, and says it all about requirements and non requirements.
What do others think?
We should also send the same letter to the KC and ask all parties that it be read out at the meeting, the KC can froth at the mouth for a little while and bring up their excuses as to why they run beauty shows only and register from puppy farms - when the people they are castigating are doing so much for the breed.
This is not because I believe there is no unsoundness - I know there is some, but its not epidemic - it is being used as a scapegoat issue for the KC to grip. Mo.
Next week there's a stakeholder meeting (KC, Dogs Trust, BVA, RSPCA etc) at which a very key issue will be discussed. Bateson has recommended the setting up of an independent Advisory Council. The KC responded with "oh, no need to do that... We'll expand the old Dog Health + Welfare Strategy Group into the new Dog Health Group, taken on new experts and, hey, with an independent chair, let US host it... just think of all the money you'll save!"
We should get a letter together signed en bloc and agreed by our majority to these people - in the hope that they can see the deceitful way in which the KC will try to pull the wool over their eyes. I would suggest the post above from Peterlee is the one to go with, its clear, concise, and says it all about requirements and non requirements.
What do others think?
We should also send the same letter to the KC and ask all parties that it be read out at the meeting, the KC can froth at the mouth for a little while and bring up their excuses as to why they run beauty shows only and register from puppy farms - when the people they are castigating are doing so much for the breed.
This is not because I believe there is no unsoundness - I know there is some, but its not epidemic - it is being used as a scapegoat issue for the KC to grip. Mo.
by bazza on 20 February 2010 - 08:02
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