Indi's post name edited - Page 6

Look all, in my opinion, fingerpointing is not going to provide an adequate option, or solution. There has been an offer to take the dog, give Jantie the opportunity to accept or reject that offer before piling on. Jantie has enough stress as it is, with this very personal decision that she has made public, without everyone piling on, at the sight of one drop of blood in the water. I would also take the dog(although I am not a rescue outfit(except for my own offspring), but live on another continent and I am not going through what it takes to get the dog to the USA(No one human can save the world). Different cultures do things differently and we cannot impose our way of thinking on other intelligent creatures of "volition". Pray for the proper outcome, learn from the process, and even in the end, if the dog is put to sleep, maybe others may learn from all of this where numerous dogs in the future will be spared this fate, because of the exposure of this incident. Many from around the world are reading this thread and not responding. The impact, regardless of the outcome will reach far and wide, within the GSD internet community. Stephen

I would hope that the breeder of this dog will never sell Jantie another dog and that he will tell this story to all other breeders in Germany.

Excuse me, SGBH, I find your post to be insultiing to those of us on this board who are on the side of the dog. This is not fingerpointing, Jantie has made his/her own bed by soliciting sympathy for the situation and then ignoring everything that was said regarding the outcome of most dogs with HD. Then he/she again posts photos of this dog and his "buddy" to the list with captions that indicate this is a loved pet but precluding it all with the statement "he will soon be put to sleep". I find that to be something less than the behavior of a sincere person.

Blitzen, you catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar, the dog is still among us. As long as he is breathing, there is hope. Any reasonable thinking person will know that I am not insulting ANYONE. If by reading my posts you cannot discern that I am on the side of the dog ALSO........well, "That's all I have to say about that", if I may quote Forrest Gump.

Sorry if I am missing comments that are dropping in just now. If I haven’t been present much on this board lately, it is because I am spending every free minute with Indiana. I am grateful for the noble offers made here on the board to take him and make his life wonderful. However, I must let you know that Indiana is not: “doing fine”. If he is still alive today, it is only because my daughter and myself have tried to make his life worthwhile, as long as possible, and always postponed the final decision. The posted pictures (mostly older ones) are very treacherous of his real condition today, and they show a healthy dog. I did not take any pictures when he drew himself home in the last months after a 4 km walk, and I can not make his pain (which is very obvious to anyone seeing him in person) visible. I do however appreciate your kind words and your will to make him live. Lisa has been a great support to me, letting me know that I am doing the only right thing. Now please do believe me, when I say that I did not go over this lightly. My struggle for his life has gone far beyond what anyone would do. We would never put a “happy” dog down. Please note that the vets who took the initial images and most breeders I have shown the x-rays to later, would immediately have put him to sleep right there on the table. I went home first and asked Lisa, who is a co-owner on the pedigree. She asked me to keep him alive as long as possible, which is just what I did. ZVKMM: Indy’s condition is not such, that he could enjoy life in any way. The clinic is preparing for further imaging, I’m awaiting the OK from one of the high-profiled professors from pathology to give green light. Yes, we have discussed and thought this over a million times, and I am sure it is in the best interest of Indiana. GSDNewbie: My daughter will turn 16 this summer, and is a very emotional and warm-hearted teenager, she studies “Tierpfleger” (pet nurse?). She is very well aware of Indy’s physical condition and has given the final ok. She knows how much the dog suffers, which is the last thing she wants. She does not want him to be a medical test-case either. Blitzen: I will NOT get another dog (and no dog is ever “perfect”). And I reject your quote: “People like Jantie are the reason why I no longer breed dogs”. I will send you information on the curriculum vitae of our dog to a later point in time. Indiana has enjoyed the treatment of a prince, as some people seem to have noticed in the pictures. DO NOT make me responsible for his HD. The Zuchtwart of the SV and breeding regulations are responsible for half of all GSDs to have HD. Please do not blame the owners when they are forced to put an aching dog to sleep. Concerning the pictures: the reason why I posted them initially was very intentional: I wanted to show the pictures of an obviously gorgeous guy (GSD) against the pictures of the atrocious hips he has, making a clear statement. SAOA felt the need to delete everything. I have put some pix back in place, as an “In Memoriam” so to speak, in honour of this wonderful dog. “Heartbreaking” is the fact that out of approx. 20.000 yearly registered GSDs in the Zuchtbuch of the SV, about 50% of them have minor to severe HD. I am very well aware of the fact, that quite a number of dogs live well with a minor form of HD. I challenge everyone however to come and feel the pain of Indiana. Your question: “Could this dog have suffered an injury?”, which was a remark made by several vets also, will be answered in pathology. All necessary medical imaging will be done prior to his departure to document his case. I will be more than glad to share that information with you all, when it comes in. Thank you Birdy for your noble offer, but it would not help Indy. I will be back later today to respond to any comment whatsoever. I am not in any way avoiding critique.

Jantie, this is the first I have read anything at all from you that indicated this dog is in pain. Your main point always has been that the breeder did not care and would not replace on the dog and you were on a mission to let us all know about your being scammed. Why did you not mention before that Indie was in a lot of pain or did I miss that? Until today the impression was that he was going to be put down just because his hips are not good enough for an "a" stamp. I found that idea to be very offensive. A dog being put down due to pain and one being put down due to his not being perfect are 2 quite different issues. I would have had far different responses had you stated this from the start. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk that off to the language barrier, not an intent to deceive. Have you even tried any of the suggestions posted to this board? Glucosamine, ester C, restricted exercise, buffered aspirin? How long has he been lame? Now you are presenting an entirely different picture. If, in fact, you have done all the common sense things for this dog, restricting his exercise in particular and NOT taking him on forced walks as it sounds like you do, keeping his weight down and so forth and if he has shown no improvement over a reasonable period of time, (I'm talking months, not weeks), and you have opted to not have hip surgery, then I agree that he should be put down. No one wants to see a dog in so much pain that he is not able to function. Frankly his xray is not typical of a dog that is in as much pain as you say he is. I've seen far worse on dogs that did not need to be put down. However, I will concede that sometimes that happens. Next time buy an older dog that is already xrayed since your main concern seems to be to have a dog that will "a" stamp and be able to be shown. Get a written contract addressing all your concerns. If you get another puppy you could very well find yourself in the same situation once again. I myself bought 4 puppies before I got one that had normal hips. Others on this board have had the same experience.

What can I say that has'nt been said. I have read this string and I'm sorry to here about Indie. It happens to the best of us. You will know when the time is right if you decide to destroy the dog.I wish I could see the pictures of the hip xrays. Buying an older dog is definetly a better way to go. But we are talking about genetics and there are soooo many things that can happen to a dog at many different ages.

I had a GSD who had Grade 3 HD and lived to be 12. She was put down due to DM. If the quality of life is not there for Indy, and he is hurting, it is cruel to let him live in pain. Drugs will take the pain away, but what about his vital organs, and what the medication would do to him in the long run if that were the course to take. What kind of life is that for a GSD? JMO, Dawn Bonome

Jantie, I understand now. And I am glad Lisa is aware of the decision and fully supports you. I am very very sorry things turned out this way, and ik wens jullie heel veel sterkte toe. Please, when you are ready, tell us what these professors have found. Also, is anything known about other siblings (I know Ice had HD)? It looks to me like this litter had rather high degree of inbreeding, same dogs from both sides and Karly even 3-3, but at this point I know little about GSD breeding...

Jantie, you math is soooo off. If 50% of the GSD population would have HD related problems, then every 2nd GSD would be running around with problems, lameness etc. That is not the case. I know a lot of shepherds, we see and evaluate so many of them all the time and HD really is the least of the problems we encounter. When you are at the University of Gent next time, look up their math department and have someone there check your figures since you put so much faith in the specialists there. Statistics show a trend of the whole. Let us know what the math wizards have come up with... Regardless, some German GSD will have HD problems, but not to the degree you have puzzled together. But it is a fact of breeding and owning a shepherd. You will make your life a lot easier to just accept that rather than fight windmills. I respect your decision to put down Indi, after all you have to live with him, none of us have to. But I am not sure that you are in the right hands and that you are basing your decision on the right information. Indi may well be happy being just a couch potatoe/yard dog. He does not need to go on 4km walks. Half a km stroll will do to get some sniffs in and go potty. Even if you would get your perfect shepherd one day, it will age and will not be able to do 4km walks anymore one day, and will be content just hanging around the home and not doing much. Pain can be treat with alternate methods as well. Gold implants have been known to releave pain, as well as acupuncture. I am currently doing a self trial on some natural anti-inflamatories and so far am happy with the results. The one I am currently testing is an enzyme, who would have thought. Works great, next will be discussion with the manufacturer about safety in dogs. The other is herbal based, has had glowing reviews, as well as other benefits, and will be tested shortly. So there are always options. Just need to find them, and try them. For joints the good old glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM has proven to work. In severe cases there is an injectable form that works more effectively and can then be followed up with oral treatment. But you have to try it first to see if it brings improvements. I also sent you a list of alternate treatments for the joint area directly. I hope you will be discussing some with your specialists. I agree that a hip replacement is a bit extreme, I would not do that either. But also yes to Blitzen that the condition you describe does not coincide with what the x-ray shows. You wrote to me that newer x-rays have shown arthitic changes, but even then - you are saying that from a Sieger show participation at which he certainly was not lame or else he would not have placed 5th, he has deteriorated so quickly within less than 2 years? That does not make sense. I seem to have the same thought as some others in this discussion - something is not quite right here. Probably why you are getting the reactions you are getting. To the moderator - Indi's x-ray was most certainly not a reson for a delete. HD results are already made public, so a correpsonding x-ray is certainly nothing that will fall under TOS Nr. whatever. Every breeder has to face the odd failing HD x-ray, it happens. The reaction to keep it under the rug only enforces the false image HD has out there. This x-ray has finally brought a different side of HD discussions to the surface that hopefully some people on this board can benefit from, and their dogs of course. And finally we can see what all the complaining has been about. Since when does this board have a problem with facts? This is a far cry from anonymous allegations that cannot be proven, many of which never see that delete button.