US Police K9 trainers and Schutzhund - Page 3

You folks have hit on a key problem with K9 units especially in small departments. Most adiministrators don't want to pay as per the Garcia ruling and caring for K9's. They also don't understand how important continuous training is to a K9 team. I know of a department where the officers purchase their own K9's to keep the program running. For safty purposes as well as continued training the schutzhund comunity is a resource that can be used by K9 teams. The schutzhund community can teach handlers how to put and keep their K9's in drive, how to do a directed search and how to see dogs switch between drives in protection. I'm personally in law enforcement and do schutzhund as a hobby. For some reason in law enforcement we tend to think we are experts at eveything and don't utilize available resources. I live in the northeast and a K9 team goes from being never evers to street certification in 16 weeks. Compare that to the RCMP program of 2 years plus a physical fitnes test for the handler. Armin Winkler has a good article on his website for alternative training for the schutzhund dog i.e. bitesuits, confrontations in a wooded area or a sit and bark with the decoy at the top of the a-frame. Safty for the patrol K9 doing schutzhund, the helper should not slip the sleeve until the handler has the K9 on a leash. Well trained patrol K9's will drop the sleeve and re-engage on whatever is exposed. OUCH! Kyle

LOL, GREATESTGSD!! VERY WELL PUT! GREAT STATEMENT!!!

wscottOO Schutzhund has MUCH to offer the various K-9 units. The training director for our schutzhund club has put on protection development, decoy and muzzle seminars for various K-9 Teams (departments) in our area, sponsored by our department. We do our own tactital training and scent detection training , but he helps with the bite development as well as training decoys in our area. It, again, though, goes to availability and convenience and MONEY. I know of many individuals who have very nice dogs who, in order to train schutzhund, must drive many hours to a club to learn. Many departments just do not have the access to well qualified individuals that can give them the help they need. RE: Decoys---guys with no help gives the guy on his shift a sleeve and says, "Can you give my dog a bite or two?"--You can imagine what happens from here--but it is all they have! I know of several k-9 Teams in 1 or 2 dog departments that came back from their initial training, passed certification and went to the street!! When they began to have small problems, there was no support nearby to help them fix things---small problems turn into big problems that turn into dissatified administrators and finally their program is ended. New handlers and small departments and/or K-9 Units need support to keep their program going. All they needed was someone knowledgeable to help. Help is NOT readily available in many areas. Long story, not so short, Schutzhund and K-9 compliment and parallel each other!!!!!!

hi, this is greatest gsd's son im a certified belgian ring decoy and i do alot of work with police dogs,here is one differense, you train your schutzhund dog to do a routine , police k9's dont do routine's , and police dont want there dogs to do bark and holds , they want there's to run into the blind and bite , thats just a couple of different reasons there not the same.

Son of Greatestgsd, Are you suggest that a schutzhund helper i not capabl of readign a dogs drives, recognizing adog that has conflict or avoidance problems? Are you also suggesting that outside of a hold and bark a schutzhund helper would be lost as far as workign a dog? Im a schutzhund helper of maybe above average skill, and if i were to work w/ k9 unit i really wouldnt be doing much training at our field. Id probalby train w/ them were ever they train, but maybe be able to read the dog and help w/ little problems. I highly doubt anyone is suggesting that k9 units go out to a schutzhund field and work do a 3 protection routine and clean up their dumbell work. i think the main point is that there are schutzhund helpers that have alot more experience working dogs (be it helping a dog that is a bit unsure, building drive, reading a dogs change in drives etc etc...) than many officers who put on a hidden sleeve and give a dog a bite. this is not to say that all k9 helpers are bad but they are working w/ limited time and resources. versus a good schutzhund helper who maybe workes 5 or 6 dogs 3 times per week. So by default he has more experience working dogs and more importantly reading dog and solving problems. Ive down a little work in a suit, by no means am an expert, but it seems to me that working a dog on a sleeve is very similar to working a dog in a suit. (im sure you next comment will be that in a suit you give leg, chest, back bites etc.. Im referring to watching what the dog is doing) If you know what you are looking for you can read a dogs drives regardless of if you are using a sleeve or suit. You will be able to read to apply presure when needed, let him win when needed. There are differnces in training but i think many of k9 handlers have no idea what they are looking at when a dog is starting to have a problem. They may only see it when the problem is out of hand. Unfortuantly many k9 handlers ar short sided and cant see past the equipment and say " when schutzhund is just a game 'cuz they use a sleeve". This guy has been around for 5,10,15 years and he can read a dog. just my 2 cents

hey im not saying schutzhund trainer's cant train police dogs i was just saying the training is different from schutzhund training .

son of greatestgsd: i know you are just giving your opinion, however, most schutzhund dogs when first sent for a bark and hold, bite. they have to be trained to stop just prior to biting and bark and hold. believe me, it would be much easier to just train to bite when they find the person in the blind, because it is what they instinctively want to do. finally, i agree alot of people just routine train in all 3 phases. i can assure you, however, that routine training has showed itself at many regional, state, national and world competitions when the handler see's his dog doing something totally wrong or "never done this before"-- different handler, field, noises, lots of people etc. etc. etc. routine training has its place in both sch and police work(alot less here however) to teach the dog the desired response/action. after that, total routine training never teaches any dog to deal with multiple and varying stresses/situations.

dont git me wrong i have alot of respect for schutzhund and schutzhund trainers , its just not my preffered sport.

First off I have been a police dog trainer, and am currently in Afganistan training and working Explosive detection K-9's and patrol, I also did the same in Iraq for 2 years. Not All Police K-9 Trainers Dislike Schutzund. As I previously stated that Sch decoys can do police decoy work but it is different. They would have to take some instruction on how the officers want the problem run. one issue departments have with using them is liability. If he gets hurt who is responsible. As far as the man eaters, I have dealt with my share of those. They won't out, they bite handler and anyone else they can get a hold of. They are a liability. I would much rather have a social well rounded dog that when told to will do what is necessary. I know of Departments with good size K-9 units that pay extra when purchaseing dogs to get a titled dog. Can Schutzhund, KNPV, or other sport dogs and police k-9's mix. I think so. Thats my 2 cents worth, all the way from Kandahar Afganistan.

i agree edd