PREY DRIVE: ACTUALLY A FAULT? - Page 6

for years i have been trying to communicate the word 'DRIVE' is defunct , obselete. ! Prey drive ... .. philisophically what does that mean ? it says nothing about what a canine's thoughts , feelings and motivations are  and nothing about the specific innate instincts of the dog . All of which leads to a SPECIFIC behavior ! prey .. searching . chasing , ambushing, pouncing , capturing etc are all aspects of prey ...But what i what to know in an idividual dog is : what motivates this dog for a specific behavior , how strong is that motivation and when the dog achieves it's goal then what goes it do next ? reminds me of the time a police officer asked me if a dog had good ball drive.. i laughed ... made me think he knew nothing about dogs. so i threw a ball .. held a dog on the leash and then let him go . BUT the dog was going nuts on the leash  when let go ... he sped like lightening to the ball which went under a fence.. he tried to dig like crazy to get it ... i opened a gate and he sped for it .. once he got it ... what did he do ... picked it up and ran off with it.. then dropped it , left it alone. SO ... what does this dog tell you ???  highly motivated to chase , but would it look for something that he didn't see have motion ?  ... perhaps independent , bit possesive , low innate retrieve instinct , and low on keeping / guarding what it just chased to get ..... to share with novices .. this is why i never use words like drive  the word tells me nothing about the dog or it's innate instincts / behavioral repitoire  that leads to it's motivations and behavior. if you train your dog and you use dogmatic , cliche words you will misread your dog and eventually create some problem .

Good post, alphapup!!

Alphapup, that is somewhat interesting as a theory that the word "drive" does not accurately portray the underlying behaviours or behaviours to their fullest; however, the word is fully a part of the dog world lexicon and somehow breeders, owners and trainers are managing to communicate.

I would find it fascinating to see you give the board some examples of how you do manage to speak of canine behaviour effectively with others.

I dont use "drive" terminology either. It is very difficult to talk to most "working dog" people about training. Just because it is difficult however gives one no right to give in to something they know is incorrect. Dog people are communicating using drive terminology but they arent communicating effectively. Then add differences in translation from language to language and the overall subjectivity of dog training theory and it produces a lot of confusion with all but the most experienced trainers who have enough experience to apply the terms to what they know gets the results they desire. Im ok with saying a dog has a lot of working drive but beyond that I find it very limiting to continue disecting a dog's thought process with the word "drive" attached to each specific behavior. Thats how humans think.........not dogs.

Was I the only one who read the rest of what Scout said about Malis? He qualified the statement in the very next sentence.

This thread is quite humorous and I'm glad I read it. LOL. 

I had no idea that a 65lb Malinois isn't as scary as a 65lb GSD to a guy who's 6'4"! HUH- I knew I was just a dumb girl, but you learn something new every day!

As for that whole "ball off a cliff debate"...God, I will shoot myself and all my dogs the day I have dogs so "prey driven" (read: unthinking)  I have to TELL them not to run off a cliff (or into the road) because their stupid ball was thrown. If a dog follows a ball over a cliff, I call that a little something called NATURAL SELECTION. AmbiiGSD...you got that right!

SchBabe- yes, there are very drivey dogs who can still think. But that's not the point I'm making above. I'm disgusted by the dog who gets all hectic and gets that blank stare and will follow that stupid freaking prop/toy/ball/whatever into a jet engine.

When beloved "prey drive" overrides basic survival instinct...well, folks, WE DONE FUCKED UP.


Daryl...I'm a tad disappointed in a couple things. You are typically much more thorough in your reading and copy/paste skills...our dear friend Scout DID qualify what he meant by that. He even specifically discussed hardier, height/weight strength, etc. I'm sure he would not disagree w/you on the herding aspect, unless he was simply in the mood to disagree...which is entirely possible;-) The other thing that irritated me was your inappropriate comma placement.

Actually........I was going to let that slide but.........yes I also would definitely say that a good Mali can herd just as well if not better than a GSD can. Now its not really herding that a GSD was used for in olden times but TENDING. Of course you know that.....well I hope so anyway. The Mali was used a bit differently from what I know about it. A GSD can herd as well. They are a versatile breed. The Mali is also a versatile breed and I will go out on a limb and say that Malis were used for a bit more of herding and not as much tending style where the GSD was used more in the tending style. So a GSD would be slightly better at TENDING and Malis would be slightly better at HERDING. Of course I also said a GOOD Mali and a GOOD GSD. What quantifies GOOD is highly subjective. For example (and back to the original topic) I wouldnt want a Mali or GSD with extreme "prey drive" for tending or herding or anything else for that matter. So my idea of a good Mali is one that is calmer and less obsessive but still is energetic and wants to work.

Quite a lot to say about nothing, and equally annoying.

Tending or Herding, your choice, show me the mal that can do it better.

prey drive.... no need to get defensive. just an opinion ..the word is limitted. you read what i wrote before . so i won't be redundant. i will add ... many a helper , some claiming to train for 20 plus years have either messed up a dog or did not bring out the potential because they looked at the dog in that way  :** ' which drive'***.   they misread  dogs . an example. upon training a dog to go into body for the bite. a dog does not go in lighteneing speed .. does the dog  [in your words] have low prey drive?.   how do you know when you see behavior in dogmatics? .... not ness .. the dog could have high desrie to bite or chase  [ and  BTW which of these are prey ? ]. !! but  the dog could have very very very low confidence. !! the motivation and the dogs feelings are not entirely the same. And if so .. low confidence_   is that from genetics or environmental i.e. learned  behavior??  this is the drawback .. just thinking 'PREY' .. so the dummy .. pushes the dog .. some real stupid helpers try using defense to fire the dog up . ok .. so in your minds .. Terminology just isn't critical when describing behavior // I accept you for your viewpoint. I won't argue.. but just ideas to be shared here.  last point. now talk about " DEFENSE DRIVE" .... attacking and fleeing  . are they froms of defense???] or 'FIGHT DRIVE ... get into a convesation about those definitions on the PDB and you will find a lot of confusion , mis representations of behavior , from whence they come and how they manifest/../..... .  then after talk ing about those , what about the  term , " Switching of Drives, and it's  recognition". BTW " capping the drive" .. that is basloney too .. just a dog that has not been taoght self control .  I know one thing.. having had several  world renowned mentors  that taught me all the old ways... if i have not opened my mind .. i could never have had my 20 plus GSDs and my mals make me a better canine person. they taught me to look , listen and learn . especcially to think about everybody's opinion.

Scout K9 GSD --pleases me to encounter  someone else that can and ddoes think canine ! you were more articulate than me. best of luck with your endeavors and your trials if you compete / AP