PREY DRIVE: ACTUALLY A FAULT? - Page 5

Jim, thanks for taking the time to make an intelligent and informed post. 

In one aspect that the Malinois has a leg up on the GSD as working dog is overall a lower incidence of dysplasia, both hip and elbow, at least according to available OFA statistics.  Speaking as someone who washed out the last two GSD's I raised for dysplasia, this is a devastating genetic fault that breeders need to work harder to expunge from the breed.

We had Ben's Malinois' hips checked by PennHIP, and got some insight into that rating system.  An average Malinois has better hips than the average GSD by a reasonable wide margin. 

I've talked with some military working dog breeders, and they are stanch supporters of the Malinois simply for the reason they have less genetic baggage.  The Department of Defense has their own breeding program, exclusively Malinois now!

GSD breeders ought not cling to nostalgia, nor self-delusion, and need to purge genetic health defects from the breed to be taken seriously as "premier working dogs".

Yvette

IMHO prey drive becomes a fault when the dog follows the ball off a cliff.  I'd far rather have the one that chases the ball and stops at the edge turns, looks at you like your bonkers and trots back to you for the spare ball.  Otherwise, you'd get through a lot of dogs!!

Otherwise, you'd get through a lot of dogs!!


Or you would learn not to play with your dog close to the edge ;) and aim the ball better lol ;) 

LOL and a lot of balls!! ;)

However it's sound reasoning.  Too much drive and the drive takes over, the dog doesn't think for itself.

Prey drive itself is needed but not to the extreme.

You say "extreme" like it's a bad thing. 

A dog with high drive can learn control work, and can be a thinking animal. 
This is a common misconception apparently. 

The whole "dog chases ball off cliff" is a poor excuse for justifying the value of lower drive.  That example is a training issue.  My husband and I live in suburbia and we play ball in our unfenced yard.  Sometimes we make a bad throw and the ball goes into the street in front of traffic.  With a quick "down" command, even our highly driven Malinois will stop and drop while the cars pass and I go retrieve the ball. 

I'd rather have a high drive dog and teach it obedience than have a dud that I struggle to animate.  In the first case, a good handler will come to success.  In the latter case, even a good handler may be frustrated.

I'd rather have a high drive dog and teach it obedience than have a dud that I struggle to animate. In the first case, a good handler will come to success. In the latter case, even a good handler may be frustrated.


Tell me about it nothing more frustrating the a dog with shitty drives. Or even worst just food drives I hate training with food!!!! I rather throw my dog from the cliff lol ;)

It realllly does depend on the training in this case.  Keep in mind that Schutzhund dogs are not necessarily protection dogs, and vise versa.  A friend of mine, and phenomenal trainer has a Czech GSD who's Sch 2, going for his 3 (and will get it eassssily) and the dog is still completely friendly and loving.  He has a very big house, and I can walk into any room (invited or not) and the dog doesn't care in the slightest.  I can take his toys and play with him and even go as far as say, "Sit," and get a response.  I respect his handler and the dog a lot -- plus, I have known the dog so that might be a bit unfair.

But, my male is not doing much Schutzhund, as we're going more personal-protection route with him, and that said,if you so much as look at him the wrong way, you're going to have a problem.  God help the poor idiot who walks into my house without me being home.  And that's the thing, and the major different.

Schutzhund, above EVERYTHING, is a sport.  A game.  For the dog, it is a game and a sport, for us handlers, we all take it very seriously and become very protective over our dogs, claiming Schutzhund/KPNV/Mondio are king of dog sports, and if your dog can do that, it can do everything.  My experience with dogs is that a large part of Schutzhund relies on prey drive, which is required for that sport.

You can't put defense on a young dog, or you'll fuck your dog up.  Imagine, for a moment, breeding dogs with "all defense, no prey" -- you have a very dangerous dog.  Prey drive is run & chase, but it's run before it's chase.  A dog has to have a marginal amount of fear or courage (or both) to work in defense.  Defensive dogs are confident and don't need to make any sound to be serious and mean business.  But, in the day and age of "attack dogs" you WANT the dog that's going to make noise and run to the end of the leash at the snap of your fingers, that's all part of the appeal of a well-trained German Shepherd.  Defense just adds to that, but you have to start somewhere.

Ok lets try it from a different angle...

The whole "dog chases ball off cliff" is a poor excuse for justifying the value of lower drive. That example is a training issue. My husband and I live in suburbia and we play ball in our unfenced yard. Sometimes we make a bad throw and the ball goes into the street in front of traffic. With a quick "down" command, even our highly driven Malinois will stop and drop while the cars pass and I go retrieve the ball.

That isn't a dog thinking for itself, that is a dog responding to a command.  If you didn't give that command, what would that dog do?

And vice versa Taking the ball off a cliff analogy from the other perspective

Stand on the edge of a cliff, throw the ball and command the dog to retrieve it.....

Control is just that, it's a set of pre-conditioned responses to a set of commands.

Bravo to AmbiiGSD for highlighting the difference between the thinking GSD and the prey-driven mali.

I really don't want the thread to degenerate to a mali v. gsd topic but let's use the contrast of the breeds for the moment to illustrate the essential traits of a gsd.

If malis are predisposed to being high prey-driven canines and therefore arguably easier to handle and manipulate for work, why is it necessary for the gsd to be bred for the same crazy prey-drive when it is naturally predisposed to a different blend of drives and in fact this may be the very essence of the breed which make it just as effective at work?

Or, to put it simply, why would we try to breed a gsd to be more like a mali? 

Do not GSD connoisseurs have a very large job of culling out the genetically weak and non-functional dogs while cultivating the lines which demonstate loyalty, intelligence and courage in a physical package that is hardy and capable?  And then these brave souls with vision must re-market (if you will) the working GSD to the world.

Meanwhile, the reality is quite simple.  The GSD is generally not regarded as being the better choice for LE and military and seeing-eye dogs, etc.- the REAL WORLD WORK APPLICATIONS, I might add.

From what I understand the Mal breeders may throw in a little of another breed to get what they want. 

I have heard of GSD breeders doing this but much  less than mal breeders.

I have a feeling that the over the top prey wasnt so important until the "sport" became such an influence on breeding.

There may be many shades of gray between the over the top prey monster and the dud.   There is something to be said for balance and if you need the over the top prey to train your dog maybe your not such a good trainer in the first place?