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by Bavarian Wagon on 02 December 2016 - 17:12
A dog will fight because it wants to fight. There isn’t a “need” to force a dog to fight in one drive or the other. Both do just fine. Sure…if a dog is never challenged in a “defensive” way it probably won’t hold up very well the first time it sees it. But the point I’m trying to make is that plenty of sport dogs and I’m willing to even say the majority of sport dogs are shown defense and are asked to work in defense. The biggest difference between what we do on a sport field and what someone would do for “real work” is that in sport we’ll stop and help the dog work through insecurity and try not to get it to the point of running. Why? Club members are there to do a hobby, they don’t need it proven to them that their dogs are weak. In real work…a weak dog is washed out, in IPO we can’t just run every other dog and expect our club members to just find new ones each time.
What I’ve been trying to say by using my dog as an example is that no matter how hard you try to push him into defense with the historical “defensive techniques.” He won’t go there. It’s not that he would fail in defense, it’s that hitting him, going frontal, grabbing his flank, ect., doesn’t take him to that place. His genetic threshold and nerve strength is too high, he stays in the fight and in prey no matter the amount of hitting that occurs. It’s the type of dog he is. There are a lot of dogs that won’t enter defense unless pushed past what 99% of people would consider safe in training…I doubt even the great Prager would go to that point as with my dog and others that would probably mean the use of weapons. It’s the same as the large MAJORITY of dogs that won’t enter prey and won’t bite in prey no matter how much you throw a pillow around and try to make them think it’s a fun game.
There is definitely something else at work when we discuss a dog sticking through the fight and continuing to do whatever we’re asking it to do. It’s not just as simple as prey/defense because we all know there are plenty of dogs that have a ton of defense and yet will run at the first sign of conflict. There are also plenty of dogs that have a ton of prey which will run when conflict is presented as well. The reason the dogs do fight can probably be oversimplified to something like prey/defense…but it can’t just be that.
by Shawnicus on 02 December 2016 - 17:12
Def gotta get in touch with koos and pick his brain because Iam looking for a nice so called "gangsta" female
by Swarnendu on 02 December 2016 - 18:12
Read elsewhere:
"Breeds/Types are created through selective breeding. Correctly done, this means Predictability in drives, temperament, hardness, gameness, etc. A well bred Terrier (of any type), is ALLOWED to fight...whether it be with a mouse or a bulldozer. A good Jack Russell would engage a grizzly bear without hesitation...and until he is dead...be completely confident that he is kicking it's ***"
"A woman in South Texas has 200, 55 gallon barrels in a fenced yard. To each barrel, there is a 6 foot chain, with the best Pit Bull Terriers in the world. The dogs are sold legitimately, for the purpose of hunting wild hogs. The largest dog on the property, is 55 pounds. At 10 months old, any one of her dogs will engage a 350 pound hog. With 2 broken legs, punctured lung exposed muscle tissue and an ear ripped off, the dog will continue to escalate the fight. The dog's mindset at this point, is extreme ecstasy. It is what the dog was born for....what it lives for....and what it dreams about. IT would rather be in a battle, than breed. The dogs are trained like any athlete...strength and endurance are key. The DESIRE/DRIVE was there when the sperm hit the egg"
by Prager on 02 December 2016 - 18:12
BW: Yeah his opinion on the dog that shawnicus posted tells you exactly what the point of his posts are...his dogs and his training is the best and most perfect training in the world and no one else can do any better. Nothing wrong with the dog that shawnicus posted, completely different training due to a completely different goal than I have but at least I can respect the work and the dog. The only thing that Prager can do is rip the dog and training apart while trying to push how amazing of a trainer he is because only he can train for the 1%. Someone on another thread pointed out about how the only thing that matters when reviewing a video is WHO posted it. This is a clear example of that. Shawnicus gave his personal opinion on the dogs that Prager imports and swears by and now no matter what he posted is going to be weak or easy or whatever else demeaning adjective Prager can come up with. Hopefully people see this and start realizing how subjective and biased he is when it comes to dogs and how all he does is push his own agenda.
World level sport training is shit, PPD work is shit, only amazing Prager training (porch training) is worth doing. Someone needs to repost that video of the muzzle work from a few months back...
Hans: LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is getting really stupid. Of course I think my training is the best! That is why I use it. Do you train with methods which you do not think are the best? If so then please tell me why? I have said that I have no problem with Shawnicus's dog but I have also said that such training is very easy to achieve and not very special dog needs to be part of such training and at least 80% of all dogs can do it. I stand behind that statement.
by Swarnendu on 02 December 2016 - 18:12
Then you are training the dog to fake it.
by Shawnicus on 02 December 2016 - 19:12
by Prager on 02 December 2016 - 19:12
BW: You’re on the right track. Your only problem is that you equate ball drive to prey drive. They are not the same thing. It’s again doing the same thing that shawnicus did earlier…if x then y. If dog chases ball, it has prey drive. If dog snarls/pins ears back its in defense. A dog can fight in either drive. A dog can fight because it wants to protect or believes that it’s life is in danger, or a dog can fight because it wants to kill it’s prey and the prey is fighting back so the dog keeps fighting. I don’t like using “nature” analogies because I don’t believe a dog is dumb enough to look at a helper or a man and believe that they’re the same as a deer or a rabbit. I don’t think that no matter how much you fling a sleeve around the dog believes that the sleeve is something for the dog to catch and eat. Those theories are over simplified versions of the truth so that the layman can understand a little more of what’s going on during training.
Hans : I would like to see scientific study which describes "ball" drive. Drive ( any drive) is inherited and there is no inheritance to chase ball. The drive is inherited and what it is used on or not used on is learned. In prey for example the principle is same regardless if the dog chases the rabbit , man, sleeve, or stick or oh yes, ball. No a"analogies needed" just understanding of natural principles. This has nothing to do with dog being "dumb" or smart it is just the matter of survival for thousands of generations which makes him to be that way.
You got one thing right and that is when you say: " A dog can fight because it wants to protect or believes that it’s life is in danger, or a dog can fight because it wants to kill it’s prey and the prey is fighting back so the dog keeps fighting." I just wonder since you finally admit to what I am saying all along, why would you refuse to use this knowledge in training?
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BW:A dog will fight because it wants to fight. There isn’t a “need” to force a dog to fight in one drive or the other.
Hans: You are right in this statement where you are contradicting all sport and sportist trainers. IMO the trainer's task is to make dog proficient in prey and in defense and then let the dog utilize proper drive based on what ever situation is at hand. It is not in way of training where we teach the dog to use prey and defense but it is in a way of sport and sportists ( = training PP via sport prey techniques from equipment to man) who "force" the dog to work in prey even in defensive situation.
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BW: Both do just fine. Sure…if a dog is never challenged in a “defensive” way it probably won’t hold up very well the first time it sees it. But the point I’m trying to make is that plenty of sport dogs and I’m willing to even say the majority of sport dogs are shown defense and are asked to work in defense. The biggest difference between what we do on a sport field and what someone would do for “real work” is that in sport we’ll stop and help the dog work through insecurity and try not to get it to the point of running. Why? Club members are there to do a hobby, they don’t need it proven to them that their dogs are weak. In real work…a weak dog is washed out, in IPO we can’t just run every other dog and expect our club members to just find new ones each time.
Hans: I would love to believe when you say that sport training train dogs to work in defense. The fact is IPO or any sport does not test it on the field and that is my ORIGINAL point here. Regardless of your derogatory statements about my knowledge of what's going on in sports I assure you that I do know what is going on in sports. After 50 years of training I would have to be much bigger idiot then you think I am not to know such "stuff".
The point is that many trainers erroneously equate negative pressure on a dog with defense drive work. The fact is that dog negatively challenged and pressured while in prey is not having his defense drive challenged. Yes I agree with you. The dog can be in prey and absorb quite bit of negative pressure before he goes into flight x fight = defense mode. However the dog resisting negative challenge in prey is not a matter of training the dog defense but it is a matter of fight drive. Defense is totally seprate issue from that.
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BW: What I’ve been trying to say by using my dog as an example is that no matter how hard you try to push him into defense with the historical “defensive techniques.” He won’t go there. It’s not that he would fail in defense, it’s that hitting him, going frontal, grabbing his flank, ect., doesn’t take him to that place. His genetic threshold and nerve strength is too high, he stays in the fight and in prey no matter the amount of hitting that occurs. It’s the type of dog he is. There are a lot of dogs that won’t enter defense unless pushed past what 99% of people would consider safe in training…I doubt even the great Prager would go to that point as with my dog and others that would probably mean the use of weapons. It’s the same as the large MAJORITY of dogs that won’t enter prey and won’t bite in prey no matter how much you throw a pillow around and try to make them think it’s a fun game.
Hans: Thanks for calling me "great" . Thanks for the recognition . LOL . The point you are making is legitimate - as long as the dog is in prey. To deify dog's fight drive in prey and flip such dog from prey do defense may be very hard . But that is not what I am talking about . While I understand that we can condition a good prey dog top go into prey on command and make the dog hunt a a man as a means of protection and I also understand that the dog then may almost never get out of prey. I totally agree with you on that aspect of training. For that reason I am big on teaching dogs to be very strong in prey drive. But you are omitting a scenario where the dog DID NOT HAVE OPPORTUNITY to go into prey before he is introduced to defensive situation. For example Chicago Police test is testing for such eventuality. Such situation never happens in sport of any kind even though PSA comes close. In sport and sportism type training the dog is always in prey state of mind BEFORE he is negatively challenged/pressured . Thus he has no opportunity to go into defense However such optimal succession from prey to negative challenge is not always reality i=on the street especially with protection dogs where dog may be and often is pushed into defense without benefit of being in prey at first.
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BW:There is definitely something else at work when we discuss a dog sticking through the fight and continuing to do whatever we’re asking it to do. It’s not just as simple as prey/defense because we all know there are plenty of dogs that have a ton of defense and yet will run at the first sign of conflict. There are also plenty of dogs that have a ton of prey which will run when conflict is presented as well. The reason the dogs do fight can probably be oversimplified to something like prey/defense…but it can’t just be that.
Hans: One more time,.... to train the dog to be in defense drive per se is not the point. The point of training the dog in defense drive is to incrementally deal with negative challenge and stress to higher and higher level WHILE IN DEFENSE DRIVE. That then generates a dog which if in defense , will be able to deal with it very high pressure while in defense drive.
by Prager on 02 December 2016 - 19:12
by vk4gsd on 02 December 2016 - 20:12
by beetree on 02 December 2016 - 21:12
The reason the dogs do fight can probably be oversimplified to something like prey/defense…but it can’t just be that.
~Bavarian Wagon
What about these internet facts? My conclusion to why dogs fight, as being: It feels good to the dog because they are genetically predisposed to fulfill the form of their existence.
The science of how behavior is inherited in aggressive dogs
http://www.animals24-7.org/2015/11/10/the-science-of-how-behavior-is-inherited-in-aggressive-dogs/
Only when behavioral inheritance is understood, beginning with basic biological concepts, can we have a clear and honest discussion about aggression in domestic dogs. First we must understand the relationship between “physical conformation” and “behavioral conformation,” which may be seen as opposite sides of the same coin.
...“Physical conformation” leads to “behavioral conformation.” First of all, each dog’s brain is genetically predisposed to grow to efficiently direct the body it is born in. Then the dog’s brain adapts itself further to the body it is in as it grows in the developing puppy. There is no gene for running or stalking, but there are genes that give a dog four legs and make those legs longer, shorter, more or less flexible, and so forth. It is because of the action of the genes that confer differently shaped bodies and brains that the pointer enjoys pointing, the border collie stalks and stares, the Newfoundland floats in cold water, and so on.
... There is such a thing as normal aggression in dogs, as in all animals. Maternal defensiveness, territorial defense, and predatory behavior and depend on different neuronal and hormonal mechanisms, and are all normal coping responses. These dog behaviors have been accepted by humans in the process of domestication, as long as the behaviors can be foreseen.
...
Research implicates the frontal cortex, subcortical structures, and lowered activity of the serotonergic system in impulsive aggression in both dogs and humans. Impulsive aggressive behavior in dogs seems to have a different biological basis than appropriate aggressive behavior.
Kathelijne Peremans, DVM discovered this by studying two different populations of impulsively aggressive dogs. Each dog had executed one or more attacks without the classical preceding warnings, and the severity of the attacks was out of all proportion to environmental stimuli. Peremans found a significant difference in the frontal and temporal cortices of these dogs, but not in the subcortical areas, compared to normal dogs. Peremans also found significant dysfunctions of the serotonergic systems among these dogs. Serotonergic dysfunction has been widely shown in many different species to be connected to abnormal, impulsive aggression.
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Another researcher, Linda Van Den Berg, investigated specifically the heritability of impulsive aggression among golden retriever, a breed rarely involved in fatal and disfiguring attacks. The goal was find out whether impulsive aggressive behavior was inherited in those few golden retrievers who exhibit it, and if so, to isolate the gene responsible for the behavior. Van Den Berg found high heritability of impulsive aggression, but did not succeed in isolating the responsible gene(s).
The heritability of abnormal aggression in certain breeds of dogs can no longer be denied. The bodies of these dogs have been selected to execute a killing bite more efficiently than other breeds. These dogs share physical conformation to the task of killing, including exaggerated jaw muscles, heavy necks and shoulders, and body mass that makes defense against an attack much more difficult. Among people who want dogs who can kill, these are the breeds of choice because they are physically more fit for it than other breeds.
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Now that we know exactly which brain abnormalities the breeders of fighting dogs have been selecting, the assertion that this aggression is not heritable is no longer tenable. It is also not tenable to assert that not all the dogs of these breeds will carry the genes that make them dangerous. These genes may occasionally drop out through random accident, just as golden retriever may acquire the genes to be impulsively aggressive. But the failure to have these genes, in the aggressive breeds, is just that––a failure. It is therefore misleading to assert that the aggressive breeds will only have the selected genes as a matter of accident, or that most of them will be fit to interact safely with other animals and humans.
As in the pointer, the husky, the greyhound, and the border collie, the genes of aggressive breeds have been selected so that certain postures and behaviors just simply feel good. These dogs will seek opportunities to execute the behaviors they have been bred for. Because these behaviors are internally motivated and rewarded, they are not subject to extinction. Learning and socialization do not prevent these dogs’ innate behaviors from appearing.
...Can impulsive aggressive behavior be bred out of fighting breeds?
...As Belyaev bred his foxes into the petable creatures he wanted, they began to have an increasingly floppy-eared mutt exterior. Belyaev’s discoveries suggest that the interface of physical and behavioral conformation mean it is not possible to breed out the impulsive aggressive behavior of fighting dogs while retaining their shape and appearance.
...Form follows function: one cannot have a dog whose entire body and brain are adapted to executing the killing bite, without having a dog who will execute the killing bite.
The impulsive aggressive gene might not be something that can be found, but instead,
... (a) doctoral study has revealed a variation in genes related to serotonin and dopamine in dogs.
Våge used these variations as markers in the study and discovered connections between individual variants of genes and aggressive behaviour in dogs.
The thesis also covers studies of genetic activity (expression studies) in different areas of the brain in aggressive and non-aggressive dogs respectively.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100525090552.htm
http://today.uconn.edu/2012/11/uconn-researcher-dopamine-not-about-pleasure-anymore/
http://www.cliniciansbrief.com/article/canine-aggression-linked-serotonin-concentration
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