WGWL - Page 8

What is logically possible is your personal theory, show the evidence of dopamine levels of the subset of blah blah's dogs.

vk
Im not offering a personal theory. I am proposing a hypothesis which allows both BW and Hans to be correct. BW has seen many successful high prey dogs that are difficult to push into defense and Hans has seen many high defense dogs that are motivated to continue to show such behavior even when it is NOT in their physical interest to do so.
I have repeatedly observed my own dog's willingness to chase a ball for a larger number of repeats than I can actually throw it; she is most likely motivated by dopamine ; similar studies have done with lab mice who will self administer repeated dosages of cocaine until they die,as their hippocampus fire away.

BW: Sorry Prager...but you basically just admitted that 99% of the time a "real working dog" doesn't need to be in defense in your own opinion. You train for the 1%? If it gets to that 1% the dog is probably dead and no amount of training will help it.

Hans: Why to be sorry. I am stating facts. The problem which you can not grasp is that 1% will get you killed . I do not train for that 1% I train for 100% where sportism trains for less then that. Any training for less than 100% is inferior training.
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BW: For some reason you also believe a dog can only fight in defense as well which is far from the truth.

Hans: You obviously do not understand what I am saying and are actually putting words in my mouth. maybe that is because you can not deal with the facts I am presenting you need to make things up? I do not think that dogs can fight only in defense. The protection dog needs to be proficient in prey and in defense. I have never said otherwise.

BW: Plenty of dogs out there are borderline IMPOSSIBLE to get into defense and would have no issues fighting for longer than any dog that would be in defense in the same situation.

Hans: such is not so ANY DOG can be put into defense. And then dog who does not have experience with such drive will fold it like a cheep tent. Why not to train PP dog in defense as you are forcing others to believe that prey is the only way to go. ?
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BW: You want to talk nature? Plenty of wild canines have to fight their prey to kill it. They don't need to feel "defensive" in order to protect themselves or to make a kill.

Hans: Who is denying that? Any idiot knows that dog in prey kills its prey. But we need to understand that not ever perp acts as a prey. Sometimes he will challenge the dog and puts the dog into defense. Then what? That happens more often then not.
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BWI don't mind a dog that works in defense but the truth is, you still can't point out a situation in which a dog NEEDS to be in defense. You speak of hypothetical situations and use them to try to bash an IPO routine.

Hans No hypothetical. Here we see an pathetic example of sportism trained dog protecting White house(!!!) who when realized that he can be hurt and is put into defense runs like a little wuss.
Caught On Cam! White House Fence Jumper Kicks K9 In the Head!

That is elite dog protecting White House by uniformed division of Secret Service. !!!!
This happens more often then not. Dog needs to be trained in prey and in defense. Prey is used in pursuit and taking the n man down and defense is used when the dog protects territory, his handler, the inside of the household when intruder breaches the door. Dog trained to act in defense will protect when he is not alowed to go into proy like Chicago police test where there is not prey involved at all. T Such situations are more common then most people realize. The problem with prey is tat the dog in prey does not recognize danger in a way to put him flight or fight state of mind ( defense) . To say that such situation is only hypothetical is lacking knowledge.
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BW: Like I said...your dogs rarely get tested except in training...just like a sport dog. The highest stress it will ever see is during training.

Hans: Well first of all you have no clue how I train and test my dogs . Our dogs work for LE all over the wold. Anybody is ivited to come here and train with me to see the logic and practice of such training.
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BW: Want to make up stories and lies about what goes on during training for sport? Go nuts. You haven't been to a sport training club in decades probably and people should know that when they're reading your claims.

Hans. It is you right here making lies up and not me. Your idiotic lies are not worth of response. When you lose your argument you attack person. Pretty pathetic.
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BW: Maybe it’s that you speak in absolutes and for some reason believe that your dogs are impossible to run and will fight no matter what. Not sure why you believe a dog working in defense will stay with the fight (especially out in the open) longer than one in prey…I believe the opposite for various reasons that I don’t feel the need to go into, but at the end of it all, I think every dog has a limit and will get there eventually. More than likely though…in a real life situation…a really good dog will never get to that point because it will have won the fight long before that or have gotten back up by the time that might be happening.

Hans. Again putting words in my mouth , probably because you are running out of argument. The fact is that nowhere have I EVER said that it is impossible to run my dogs. But I am still baffled by the notion that you believe and defend position that dog trained in prey only will stay in fight when pushed into defense. It seems to me that for that he needs to be trained . That is what I do perform training in prey and in defense as well and as you are stating here you see it such training without merit thus you do not conduct nor believe in such training and that is why you are defending the ridiculous notion that untrained dog in skill of defense fighting is better off then dog who is trained in such skills of prey and defense alike.

Mithuna:
There is a major caveat in BW's argument that a high prey dog is necessarily better the dog which is readily defensive because it is harder to push the prey dog into defense, the latter also being the domain of flight.
I have observed dogs ( with high ball drive ) in that continue to chase a ball at very high speeds when IT IS NOT in their physical interest to continue to do so ( rapid metabolism of pyruvate and very high lactate build up ); infact some of these dogs will literally run themselves to death. The reason why the dog continues beyond its own safety is that suchg drive satisfaction is very closely related to dopamine release and learning by the limbic reward system. The dog quickly learns that if he chases this is the guaranteed way to a dpoamine release , which in turn act as a motivator to alloow the dog to continue to chase.

It is logically possible that in a subset of dogs defense drive satisfaction is also related to both the adrenaline and dopamine systems that propel the dog to remain in defense evne when IT IS NOT in the dog's physical interest to do so. I think th dog's to which Prager has become habituated is coming from this latter subset.I was also told about this phenomenon by the Bismack breeder.

Hans : This is slightly different topic but I totally agree and teach and use in training that prey or defense generate natural "addiction" to hormones like endorphin and dopamine and even adrenaline and so on which makes the dog to enjoy and look forward to  the fight in defense and in prey alike. I would like to emphasize that I believe that dog needs to be trained in prey and in defense alike and I teach the dogs to use prey when advantageous like in tracking and chasing and biting of perp who acts like a prey and so on and I teach dog defense in situations where defense is necessary where the perp is not acting as prey and tries to dominate the dog. Training of the dog in defense consists of teaching the dog that he does not need to choose flight since he can win fight if he generates enough pressure against his opponent. This then through incremental increases of the negative pressure teaches the dog that he can deal with tremendous amount of pressure of negative challenge which will send dog unprepared by such training, running. Dog needs then to be ( IMO) prepare for such eventuality through training. Such dog skilled in preu=y and defense I believe is a dog better prepared for his work as protector or LE dog.

Shawnicus nice pooch. The dog is nice effective protector, but nothing exceptional as far as training goes. I have trained poodles and springier spaniels to do this. (No BS) . It is not difficult to train such dogs. Such dog is very effective for personal protection, but it is really easy to train it into most dogs. About 80% + of including 1/2 ass dogs can be trained this. I am here to say that if I can get a woof out of a mature dog during basic test, then I can train him to act in similar fashion in about 1 mo - 4 mo. . I have made living out of this for several years and have trained literally hundreds of dogs of all breeds to act in similar fashion. this is no big deal. On top of it I have trained them to be also very friendly by default and act like this only on command and when situation required it and shut down on command as well. That  is very important.More then show offorce.  It does not testify well about your training ability if you say that you can not train dogs to act this way unless they are basically vicious asocial bastards which is what you are describing in what you are calling hard defese  dogs.

Prager the amount of time you spend on the internet you don't train any dogs. Can you please try stop talking about yourself so much, look how many times you use the word "I", seriously count them..... narcissistic much.

Yeah his opinion on the dog that shawnicus posted tells you exactly what the point of his posts are...his dogs and his training is the best and most perfect training in the world and no one else can do any better. Nothing wrong with the dog that shawnicus posted, completely different training due to a completely different goal than I have but at least I can respect the work and the dog. The only thing that Prager can do is rip the dog and training apart while trying to push how amazing of a trainer he is because only he can train for the 1%. Someone on another thread pointed out about how the only thing that matters when reviewing a video is WHO posted it. This is a clear example of that. Shawnicus gave his personal opinion on the dogs that Prager imports and swears by and now no matter what he posted is going to be weak or easy or whatever else demeaning adjective Prager can come up with. Hopefully people see this and start realizing how subjective and biased he is when it comes to dogs and how all he does is push his own agenda.

World level sport training is shit, PPD work is shit, only amazing Prager training (porch training) is worth doing. Someone needs to repost that video of the muzzle work from a few months back...

so BW
I did not see you challenge my hypothesis.

So that’s the first problem. The second is that in actually studying the effects that take place in the brains of animals during the learning process, scientists have found a puzzling paradox: dopamine— often referred to as one of the brain’s reward chemicals—is not released in connection with an external reward, it’s released in the absence of an expected one. Other research shows that dopamine is not really a reward chemical at all. It’s more like a salience detector, meaning that it helps humans and animals pay close attention to changing patterns in their environment. The upshot is that learning doesn’t take place through forming an association between a behavior and a reward but rather through a mostly unconscious process called pattern recognition.

http://www.leecharleskelleydogtraining.com/single-post/2016/12/01/Dog-Training-Positive-Reinforcement-vs-Drive-Training

Shawni - getting back to original topic....

A friend of mine had this dog -   http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=412853-ero-van-de-herdgang

 

I worked this dog several times and Ero was a beast.   Originally imported by my friend for someone else, the new owner couldn't or didn't want to keep the dog so my friend took him back.   It took my friend, an experienced dog man,  a while before he could safely handle Ero.   He said that Ero was handler-hard and dominant.   When I worked Ero, he had a power and grip that was impressive, and he would try to dominate and toss me around.     When around that dog, you could feel his power and presence even when not working him, and the dog seemed to command respect - I never asked to pet that dog.   I saw that dog being worked by a new helper, a big man, and the dog had his way with that man/sleeve, tossing that big man around like a rag doll.   Ero was a medium-large dog, around 80-85 lbs IIRC, rather squarely built and agile.  His demeanor was serious, dominating, and hard.    Ero never did accept my friend as a true leader, there was only one alpha in that dog's life and that was the original handler, a KNPV trainer in Holland.   I saw video of Ero in Holland, of training and his certification trial, and that dog's demeanor was very different with the original handler.  The original handler was Ero's alpha, it was obvious from the dog's body language, but all other humans were to shite on.

 

That is my personal experience with a Tiekerhook-lines dog, albeit from many years ago.     From what I have observed and heard, Koos likes and breeds a certain type of dog, and it sounds like the type that you seek.