Discernment - Page 8

I rather liked the topic myself and was never being sarcastic when I used the term "oldie". I still like the topic, even if it is on this forum, be it considered by anyone to be working dog, or not. 

 

Gustav - should it be possible that we do understand each other in this point?

Unequivocally !

Had to google and translate this word...

Gustav, I'm glad you brought it up. It's thought provoking at least, and at most gives insight as to why the breed has changed.

Gustav, there may be others here besides me who were struggling with your term "discernment". I'm still not sure I know what it means as it applies to the breed.  I haven't been deliberately dense with my responses, I truly wasn't sure what you meant. Don't forget I own an ASL ; that should get me a pass .

Susie said:

Gustav: " mythical stories of the past " mostly are what they are - mythicals...
No, kidding, I think, the more prey drive is involved, the less discernment is possible.
That´s like men thinking with their lower part of the body....

I believe this to be true in the sense that when the prey drive is greatly disproportional to the other drives the dog's capacity to think (discern) is overruled by the exaggerated and out of balance prey drive. The same goes for exaggerated defence drive which is probably born out of fear. The fearful dog cannot discern. 

Yes Susie, some men have their brains below their belts. 

 

 

Prey is very shapeable. In sport the first IPO exercise is the search for helper. It is prey motivated. The dog knows where the prey is located but very many dogs do a really nice job, under control in prey drive. In natural. a predator learns not to chase the wrong specimen or it might not eat, might receive injury, or might perish . Learn or die, from starvation, injury. Why have a hunting dog if it will just chase prey without cooperation to the handler? We can all site some prey monster out of control but that is not the point. If dogs do not ''discern'' now as before, is the subject. training has changed across the board. Military dogs now are doing more detection work than ever before. To ignore a smell like meat, or female in season, or coffee grounds in a drug search is a good thing. Is that an example of discernment or conditioning. Is the prey drive motivating a dog to find something like drugs or does he hate drug dealers? Prey is not the problem. It unbalance training.Too much defense would be one problem in any training. Too much prey, undirected by control, is another problem. I have not been around forever but I see more dogs and trainers now than ever  doing a better job at shaping behavior in their animals. I wonder if the percentage of truly servicable dogs to mankind is different now than before. It might be a better percentage. Have we ever had more detection dogs in service than at this point in time? food for thought

Ok, now I think I get it. Those three dogs I have who climb the fence out of the same dam, well I inadvertently did breed for it. The dam is a problem solver, one of the main reasons I value her so much. I have at this time five of her offspring from two different males (I'm not keeping all of them), and have bred her for her third and final litter.
One of the fence climbers, when she was only six months old, I had a helper here and we we working the pups on barking for the tug. He got on the other side of a fence and teased each pup individually with the tug back and forth across the ground. Each pup barked in frustration, and were rewarded with a bite, except the fence climber. After following the tug two turns back and forth, she looked up at the top of the fence. With out hesitation she climbed the fence and was teetering on the top, looking down at the tug. Laughing, I picked her up off the fence and set her back on the ground. We worked the tug back and forth, this time she didn't follow, but immediately climbed to the top of the wire fence. I held her so she couldn't jump off, and told the helper, give her a bite. She grabbed full in her mouth and I set her back down, tug deep in her mouth. We ended her session there. So, that is problem solving, and she is now two and a half, and like her mother, is a civil, hard bitch.