THE POLITICS AT THE 2011 NASS - Page 8

Marko,

Thanks for your line up. I was sort of busy during the class and had no chance to see who was in there and how they looked. There's something about the dog you are double handling losing lots of places that keeps you pre occupied from the rest of the class. 

I'll repeat a couple observations. 11 or so previous VA, as I recall 17 who when compared to previous placements are in the running for VA. You have a combination of performance in the ring on the day, progeny, prior results, hip and elbow status, pedigree, judges eye for the direction of the breed (and I'm sure I'm leaving a couple other criteria out) all factored into placement.

One can always search for what I call 'hollow' VA and find one or two in the class. These are dogs that do not have the record and history to back up the rating. Some have risen to the top, others have gone by the wayside. Is it politics, does the judge really see potential, or was the dog supressed politically in Germany and it took getting him out of Germany for him to take his place.

I find the difference between where Xenox placed and where you had him placed interesting. He's shown well, placed first at the Regional show in Atlanta under the same judge, there's one dog between where you have him and where he finished. If the politics were really an issue, I would have expected him to be further back on your list. I think you're both right actually, VA2 or VA4 keeps him in the top of the group. I'll bet he has the progeny behind him to propel him up a couple places this time next year. His support team has some very good females to breed to him.

Arak not VA. He was huffing a puffing a little out there. SG7 in Germany, excellent producing mother, already VA and 2 VA sons. I think I'd have to include him in the group if the handler had to carry him around on a stretcher. It's the stuff the VA group was invented for.

It's late. I'll mull over a couple other thoughts.

where to start?  Dog1 and Markopolo--the question of how I would place the dogs--a tough one.  Like Markopolo I'm no expert and really struggled.  I can basically agree with his ideas on placement--with one big exception--I would move Odin to VA1 rather than VA2--he was VA4 at NASS last year-Rudiger Mai and VA2 last May in US Schutzhund with Bernt Weber, received excellent critiques from both and presented very nice progeny group.  Guess I just have a very hard time accepting the fact that  connected German dogs can come here with no progeny and be annointed Sieger or Vize Sieger and I think the ease with which that can be done just encourages more of the same over and over.  JMHO  Not sure then where I would put Tuareg--probably VA 4-6.
Now it comes out that Goldlust's Xenox placed 1st in a regional show under Bosil and surprise, surprise pulls a VA2 at NASS and he even gets an SG1 on a young male after encouraging another promising male not to be shown.  AND THIS IS THE SV JUDGE INVITED BY US SCHUTZHUND TO JUDGE IN 2012 AND THE WDA FOR NASS 2012.  WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO ENTER EITHER OF THOSE SHOWS KNOWING HOW MANY FAVORS NEED TO BE REPAID?  I will repeat myself by suggesting that both the WDA and US Schutzhund have serious discussions with the GSDCA and SC and yes--each other--about the blatant politics that are going to be the ruin of the German Shepherd breed.  I also suggest that NONE of the NASS judges--official or "visiting"-be invited to judge again in the US for a period of time to be determined and starting in 2012 and that any current invitations be rescinded.  Maybe that won't stop the abuses but maybe it will slow them up until further checks can be put in place and it would send a strong message to Germany.
K9nme--you asked about the corruption.  I suggest you look on Facebook where you can read in detail all about the cut throat politics in the WDA.  Cindy Peterson, the vp who is president until the end of the year tried very hard to keep the politics out of the WDA and deserves alot of credit for her efforts.  There was no way Cindy or anyone else could have done anything about the corruption in this show because the Germans don't bother telling us in advance what they are planning to do.  Ms Kirkwood ran for president of WDa but was defeated unfortunately.  Not only was she defeated I understand the political cadre that will take over in January are now actually trying to expel her from WDA.
Dogwood--well said about people watching and listening and reading even if we don't always initially make our voices heard.  I think it is time we all start making our voices heard---loudly!!  I also think we all owe a big thanks to Markopolo for initiating this important and informative thread.  Again JMHO

If one does not do Facebook, how can one obtain the very information.  Please help me in this regard.

k9nme, you can go to Facebook and do a search on GSDCA-WDA. Other than that, I don't know. 

openmind, I cannot imagine any scenario in which the WDA having discussions with the GSDCA would benefit the GSD. It did appear that with the election of DS and the officers that cccame in at the time, that there were steps made to limit the influence of the GSDCA on the WDA.

One point that I do disagree on, is that North American breeders should get any kind of special consideration. If someone has the means to bring good dogs to the U.S., then more power to them. In the long run, it's the GSD that will benefit. 

Rik

 

A couple of things:
Cindy has done a GREAT job in doing her best to keep things FOR the GSD and the MEMBERSHIP! One always has to remember, that the board works for US as members and should be looking for the dog's and our"collective best interests.
Second, WE as the membership NEED to be involved and heard at every board meeting. There is a phone number that members are suppose to get so that they can listen in on the board meetings and be heard if need be. If you aren't getting that number, as I rarely do, contact your regional director or someone on the board it's self to get it. Often times the other problem is is that we as the membership do not know when the meetings occur. This also needs to be addressed and contacts made to find this information out.
These are the only ways we as the membership will know the direction the board is going and the only way our voices can be heard.
Debby

Which brings us to a question.

Since none of us are experts. So lets ask some questions and get some answers.

Which rates higher a US bred dog with progeny or a top placing import? One has the record, one has progeny. Which is better a high place or a progeny group? Where is the line drawn between how high the place is in Germany and how good the progeny is? Should we reward the effort or pick the best dog?

What about performance in the ring and performance on the field? How does that factor in?

Comments.........

In my not so humble opinion what a dog has done before, in Germany or outside of Germany, should have nothing to do with the placement on a given day.  A top dog from Germany can come over and look like snot on show day, have no progeny and waltz up to the helper on the field to be fed the sleeve and receive a top placing.  That's not what a sieger show should be all about.  Many factors should be considered:  condition of the dog on that day, ability to gait with defined stamina, clearly pronounced (and I mean very very pronounced) bitework and last but not least a substantial progeny group. 

Unfortunately, these factors seem not to be in place at this time.  For that reason, I personally pay no attention to placings but look at the whole dog and what he can and can't do on and off the field.  I don't give a hoot what the dog did in Germany or anywhere else. 

Why aren't the judges looking at the whole dog?

Judy

I think the ultimate goal is to better the breed.  How do you achieve that?  By picking the best dog.  So what makes the best dog?
Corrrect Structure must be there. 
Working Ethic, hard nerves, strong constitution.....I think a truly great working dog can get off the plane and do the job at hand without too much "down time".
He/she must absolutely be able to reproduce these qualities in puppies or it will be an exercise in futility.
To better the breed, a one in a million dog must be able to produce one in a million puppies.  More than once.


Rik, I agree with your last statement.  I think one issue here is the thinking that just because a dog is imported from Germany or anywhere for that matter or was bred by a "Big Name Over There", makes it a better dog.  Is this true.  Or do the Germans just tell us they are better dogs?

I think the problem becomes complicated with the whole idea of granting favors, repaying favors....ya know good ol' boys: you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.  If they are truly better dogs with a better gene pool then more power to ya'll.
BUT!  If you are placing your friends dogs ahead of better dogs here because you are repaying a favor or need one in the future.  That is wrong.
Winning dogs do sell lotsa puppies.

People can see for themselves on the field who is the better dog.....at biting, tracking, obedience and which one is producing good quality puppies...So, yes, in my humble opinion, a progeny group is a vital part of the process.
Dogs that are imported need to have a progeny group as well as the home bred dogs.

I think the membership definitely needs to be more involved.  This includes a say in the location of the show and who is judging.  I liked the idea expressed by someone to rotate the judges.
Am I correct in the following thought?
In AKC land, a dog cannot be a Champion unless he has earned top placings under DIFFERENT judges.  Is this true?  Then it should also be true in our world.


Got a little windy here....sorry.

 

Judy,
didn't see your post before I posted....you said it better than I.

regarding the WDA election.....it wasn't a squeaker.