Training ERROR or just a good dog - Page 7

BW, two things
if someone doesnot compete at top level IPO doesnot allways mean they cant, some dont want, some dont have the right group of people around them and some dont have the money to buy a (almost) ready dog like a lot do

secondly you cannot be more wrong by assuming two littermates have same genetics, everything mentioned after that assumption is flat out wrong

IPO training world ideally definately requires a different type of dog than a PP dog and again different than a Policedog so each to his own

one can try to put a name or definition on everything and many discussions are about interpretation of what one would call civil, or prey or whatever

to me it all boils down to will the dog work in the job he is sold to


If someone says training will change the ability from a geneticly civil dog to where he doesnot have any civil left I would say the dog was not civil to start with but maybe insecure and got stabelized trough training

Last two posts by GSDfan, and Duke are on point, in my experience.

To me civil is plain and simply a dog willing to engage a man and bite hidden/no equipment. A dog that targets the real threat and not the equipment. I really don’t care “why” the dog does it…be it a prey bite or a defensive bite or whatever other bite you might believe in. This is something that can easily be taught to the majority of well balanced working dogs. Are there dogs that are naturally more apt to biting a man? Absolutely, those dogs are easier to train for those looking to just focus on a dog biting a man. But it’s not the most difficult thing in the world to get a dog to bite an arm or a leg through prey or one of the other drives. Most GOOD dogs will just bite whatever is presented and not worry much about what is in their mouth. A dog with a good foundation, that was never beaten off an accidental live bite because they’ve never had one, shouldn’t have any issues grabbing hold of an arm if it’s presented to them while in drive or being agitated.

Things like leg, biceps, back, chest, ect…all taught to a dog through targeting. If a dog’s foundation has taught it to bite anywhere or anything that is presented, the dog will bite that body part. In a sleeve sport…a dog is constantly taught to target up and at the sleeve…so after a while it’s a difficult thing to rewire but can definitely be done.

Most should watch videos of some of the most successful trainers/helpers working young dogs these days. A lot of focus is put on barking at the man, wanting to get at the man without any equipment on, then when the dog shows the proper behavior, the behavior is marked, and a dog is given a reward. To most this sounds terrible and it is definitely teaching the dog rules rather than “real protection” but the dog is taught to bark and focus on the man rather than the equipment. A good foundation IMO because at a certain point, the dog is in a high enough state of drive that if it were released and allowed to engage the helper, it wouldn’t have an issue doing so.

@gsdfan

I asked for what you disagree with not a definition but everyones use of this particular word is completely different so without understanding there is no clarity, so do appreciate your definition. I agree with you it does not have to express in speed to aggression that's sharpness nothing to do with civil.

So I guess from your post you disagreed with the inherent it is or it is not. Your use of civil includes the ability to train a dog to be civil, and all dogs that bite hidden are civil. The use of sport or work words was used as both camps have different ideals associated with the word.

Of course civil is one element of the dog but its the one we are discussing, Im not stuffing other drives or expressions into civil. You can have a dog dominate a sleeve and run in a real fight. You can have a confident dog that looks solid as hell because of good masking (training) on the grass that will be lost in a real work or fight. You can have a charging flying fur missile engage a sleeve at 50 yards under prey that with pressure, sometimes minimal, goes into flight or is lost.

Cant not have any of that and call a dog civil in my definition. There are no barking green dogs at the end of a leash who lack confidence lack dominance that are civil, perhaps a very young youngster but no dog. That doesn't fly. You cant stuff lack into civil. For me those dogs just don't possess it.

I also agree with dukes post.




 

I would roughly day a dog is civil to me when he fires up and engages when is threathened or pressured, as opposed to being triggered and engaging on a prey item

Preydogs that are trained on hidden sleeves etc are at risk for failure as there will come a moment when they end up in a situation that they dont recognize as being trained before

I remember a video of a KNPV met lof titled dog that went in avoidance when person without equipment threw some plastic bottles at him and shouted at him

also remember a video of a guy in underwear running of a secret service dog

I would roughly day a dog is civil to me when he fires up and engages when is threathened or pressured, as opposed to being triggered and engaging on a prey item

Preydogs that are trained on hidden sleeves etc are at risk for failure as there will come a moment when they end up in a situation that they dont recognize as being trained before

I remember a video of a KNPV met lof titled dog that went in avoidance when person without equipment threw some plastic bottles at him and shouted at him

also remember a video of a guy in underwear running of a secret service dog

I would roughly say a dog is civil to me when he fires up and engages when is threathened or pressured, as opposed to being triggered and engaging on a prey item

Preydogs that are trained on hidden sleeves etc are at risk for failure as there will come a moment when they end up in a situation that they dont recognize as being trained before

I remember a video of a KNPV met lof titled dog that went in avoidance when person without equipment threw some plastic bottles at him and shouted at him

also remember a video of a guy in underwear running of a secret service dog

@ Duke:

Re the White House dog being run off with a lame kick - excellent example of a dog lacking the correct drives to get the job done.

Because a genuinely civil dog CAN'T and does not pick and choose when it will engage, it's desire to fight the man overides - EVERYTHING.

That raw drive is ALWAYS untrained, that's what gives the dog consistent reliability to engage.

Good training, including challenging environments will increase performance, but that resilient drive HAS to be there to begin with - ALWAYS.

When it is not, bluff is all you are left with.

R
Gee

and whitehousedog had LOTS of training and passed 3 times of testing by different people, sure he bit fine on the suit everytime, and took lots of pressure when on the bite

Duke…I agree with you in regards to your description of civil. The only thing is that it’s very difficult to gauge that in an already trained dog. A dog can be trained “improperly” to only light up when prey is present or it can also be trained to light up at an agitating helper (which many are). So how exactly do you tell if the dog is genetically predisposed to be civil or if it’s the training/foundation the dog has received. After a while…most IPO dogs realize they only get a sleeve or a pillow or whatever and will focus on that object, some do still focus on the man which could be genetic or could just be good training.

I think just like in IPO where many people point out the faults of certain dogs (such as barking at the sleeve/not engaging a helper without a sleeve), it’s not fair to point out the faults of real working dogs which fail at their jobs. Might be genetic, might be a training problem, might be a combination of both. Basing such an opinion off of a video is wrong by any measure of a dog trainer. Unfortunately with most older dogs, the lines between genetics and training are very blurred and unless you know exactly the type of foundation and training the dog received, it becomes very difficult to make those kinds of statements about those dogs.