Watered Down sport?? - Page 6

I think you have to look at 2 major factors in comparing today's sport (IPO) and years past. One factor is the difference in exercises and equipment used. The other factor is training methods.

Exercises/equipment differenes:
- the reed stick from years ago was replaced with the padded stick
- there is no more 'frisk' of the helper after the call-out from blind before escape
- the long bite start
- I am sure there are more that I forgot about, but you get the idea

Training methods:
- more motivational training, less compulsion (overall) used today
- todays motivational training suits high-prey/food drive dogs

This is just a very broad overview of how I see the biggest differences between years past and modern sport has changed the approach that trainers are taking and the dogs selected for it. I think the performances of [top] dogs and handlers today are much more pleasing to view, but this is not to say the dogs are superior from those of the past. The trainers/handlers of today have many more tools and methods to get the best out of their dog, and access to information has made it easier for people to learn.

To be frank, it doesn't even have anything to do with Schutzhund or IPO.

If they survived the training they were hard and good dogs, period!

That's the only reason why we had such dogs because of how much compulsion was used.

IT's also, why IPO, to this day, has such a bad reputation in Germany because of how abusive the sport was and still is to some extend.

now BE, dont think BW will agree with you on that

Thanks dukey...I never ever said anything like that. I said the idea that because a dog can take senseless beatings and then look like the dogs in the 80s and 90s looked...doesn't mean its stronger than the dogs of today. Is it a strong dog? Sure. But it also doesn't mean that Schutzhund/IPO is watered down because we're not senselessly abusing dogs these days. It just means we've learned and now have better training methods that at least a handful of people on here have absolutely zero understanding of. Unnecessary abuse doesn't prove anything, there are a ton of dogs that can take that level of abuse and crawl through life. The level of work expected today...those dogs, with that training, would get the same kinds of scores many of the club level dogs get today using similar methods due to lack of drive.

It's easy to romanticize your memories, but the tape shows everything we need to know. I see plenty of dogs working the way the dogs at the BSP and WUSV 30 years ago worked...they go into the blind and wooo wooo wooo the same way, they look around the same way, they get half grips the same way, and they take unnecessary bites the same way. Under today's higher standards they're just not getting V scores at national/world level.

 

Your false assumption that a) today's dogs don't get trained with pressure and b) that under the same pressure as the dog's of 30 years ago the dogs wouldn't be successful is just that...false. The best dogs of today would look EXACTLY the same as those dogs did in their work.

BW says:  @  Duke
Your false assumption that a) today's dogs don't get trained with pressure and b) that under the same pressure as the dog's of 30 years ago the dogs wouldn't be successful is just that...false. The best dogs of today would look EXACTLY the same as those dogs did in their work

I would like to see that the today flashy  podium dogs with oldschool handlers back in the time machine......

This would open some eyes

BW, I typed a long reply before but deleted it , you will fight it till the end, I wrote some time ago that it looks you are protecting an investment, and you told us you did, so that explains a lot

so even if you get proof on a platter you will disagree, im sure

I personally trained with and even handled worldlevel dogs that would definately not make it in the old time as they cannot handle hard physical corrections, does that say anything about all top dogs, definately not, but prooves that todays training allows softer dogs to stay in there with smart training, if you like it or not,

thats about the last I will say about this,

and I will not give you names of world level dogs I worked,trained with and even owned for reselling

 

 

 

 

BM...you're making an assumption on what you wish to see. You WANT to be proven that the dogs wouldn't handle that pressure. You actually have no idea if they would or if they wouldn't. My belief...they would handle it and look just as droopy as those dogs did in the videos. There are plenty of "old school" handlers/trainers still around that are still training their dogs in those ways, they droop around just like they did 30 years ago. You don't see it because you don't go to clubs and see it, you watch working dog videos...videos of top dogs that are trained to look the way they are expected to at the highest level.

Today's dogs are out of the dogs from 20-30 years ago. The drive is nothing new, people just know how to use it better.

 

dukey...again, please find where I said I was "protecting an investment." Quote it, or give us a link to the thread. Lets stop making things up and actually use fact. But it's clear you're incapable of doing that, all you want to do is make people believe you're something special, which is fine. Have fun with your world level dogs, I know if I had a world level dog that I actually showed at the world level I wouldn't be hiding it. Oh...and going to the whole "that's all I'll say on this topic?" Very nice forum move...5 stars.

never said I actually showed them on world level, nice try, I rehome multiple older sport dogs every year

 

You said you needit to stay anonymus not to piss off people and be extremely nice to be able to  make a sale

your words, not mine

 

have a good one

...as they cannot handle hard physical corrections...

I believe you are saying that a lot of dogs who get these types of corrections, shut down and now the handler is wasting time to build the dog back up in order to continue in the task at hand. But there is another type of dog this can also apply to; the dog that when a hard correction comes, the dog reacts by coming back up the leash. Personally neither are desirable to me, but i would rather have the one who will push back. in my inexperienced opinion, both instances are a sign of the handler/trainer not having the skills to read the dog and work with the dog as a partner in training (or might not have the right dog in general).

I think this is were the better training in today's sport world really shines. Back in the day obedience was seen as "..a dog doing what it doesn't want to do because of xxxx" where today, most handler/trainers learn how to manipulate a dog into doing obedience because the dog has learned that working in harmony brings on reward and through repetition the dog has been conditioned that the obeidence work itself is enjoyable and rewarding. This is why a physical reward such as a ball/food/tug can be withheld in training and the dog continues to push harder in its "work"

Lol...I know one world level dog you speak of...that's a good joke!!!

Oh...so that's an investment to you? Interesting...maybe we have different definitions of what an investment is? Kind of like different definitions of good dogs/training?