Sloping backlines and over angulation - Page 6

@Ibrahim : Awww ! It did work fine, lovely song and very cute
little dog. Compliments of the Season to you and yours.

I like the structure of that Black GSD posted by BlackMalinois. Excellent and athletic. Just like the structure of the original fully functional GSDs, before the "angulations", "hock lengths", "thigh bone angles" and "slopes" made the GSDs less functional. Very similar to the structure of the Malinois, that has managed to remain fully functional by staying away from the needless "angulations".

The most valid example of a fully functional structure  is that of the wolf, which is as perfect a functional structure as you can get (via Natures's own ruthless selection process for survival)......like the original GSDs and the Malis.

You know,smh, this is why I am so infrequent as poster. I never said Xeph working her dogs on AKC criteria was nothing!!! My post was not about Xeph or her dogs, but rather about the type of angulation that you see in dogs that handle sheep as WORK. And I think what I said is truthful or factual....now how that has been extrapolated into me insulting someone or demeaning somebody doing something worthwhile with their dog is beyond me. I thought the topic was focusing on the correlation between angulation and work......sorry!

Gustav, if your last words were directed to me then you should pardon my stupid English, to me you are beyond doubt, except in conformation, I feel and understand, and I may be wrong here, you do not value necessary conformation and angulation. If you did then you would be my total absolute model. In temperament, work ability, history ..,,..., you are, truthfully, but not conformation.
To all, I am against over angulation, some years ago I thought it was the right thing, but I learned it is not, on the other hand I value structure and correct conformation till end of the way. Structure value has two sides not only one side, the opposite to over angulation is correct angulation not under angulation like that of the dog malinoi posted, that dog is absolutely wrong all the way, that is not structure of a trotter.
Gustav: you are the master in all, I only wish you give due credit to correct angulations

The dog blackmal posted has the structure of a dog built for work, not the show ring......that's the difference and will always be the difference.

But Joanro, that dog almost has no rear angulation while a GSD should have deep enough rear angulation to produce necessary proper momentum for endurance
The coin has two sides, the one of this topic, has one side overangulation which is detrimental to working GSD and the other side is lack of angulation which again is detrimental to a working GSD
Why do I feel that trot, and tending sheep, covering long distances is not considered work by some of you?

Check the pictures of a wolf (Grey or Carpathian), which is one of the best trotters there is......whose structure has been refined over 1000s of years of unrelenting natural selection.

The black dog that BlackMalinois posted, has a functional structure that looks eerily similar to the superb trotting structure of the wolf ! The black dog's structure also looks very close to the lithe structure of the pre-over-angulated GSDs or the Malinois, before the show-ring intervened to the detriment of the working structure.

The wolf, who has to trot ruthlessly efficiently for days at a time, does not care about "angulations" or "hock lengths" or "slopes" or whatever other terms are bandied around on such forums. The trotting structure just works as perfectly as is possible in nature, without man's destructive intervention, as has happened in the modern GSDs (past few decades) operating in the show-ring.

The founder of GSD designed a structure he thought would be best for endurance and multiple functions, he chose few dogs known for their good temperament and worked his way to set type and structure, he reached his model, I think, in the seventies.
So what you're saying aaykay is not true about the early structure of the foundation GSDs having the proper structure, they did not. We only started seeing the founder's vision of GSD structure maybe in the sixties or so.
So you think best trotter is the wolf and our GSD breed structural characteristics are wrong? Is that what you're saying?

Here's an interview with Manfred Heyne, which might throw some light on herding dogs......he is a working shepherd and has been using herding GSDs for 60+ years:

http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/the-genetic-origin-of-the-breed/

He briefly tried the show-type dogs, got his hands burned and never looked at them again.

A quote from the above link:
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Where today can you still find the true breed type? After 1946 I’ve seen this type only a very few times and then really only in my own dogs. The current fashionable “ring runners” no longer represent the German Shepherd Dog for me. All winners in each class of the so-called German Shepherd World Championships should be taken up and put in an animal preserve ─ in wintertime with snow. The gaiting structure and angulation so favored by the SV leadership and their supporters are nothing more than theory and would actually be a hindrance in the struggle for survival. Just look at wolves!! The German Shepherd Dog is supposed to be the most versatile working dog of all, so I must ask myself: what work would this kind of extreme gaiting be useful for other than running around the show ring? Theory and practice really are two different things.
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Here is a quote from Mr. Louisn Donald on the rear angulation

Quote

I have always been concerned about overangulation of the hindquarter and to a degree I have been the butt of well-meaning jokes in this regard. The problem has got worse and is now a chronic but almost accepted problem in Europe. In this context the ideal hindquarter angulation for a trotting endurance dog is exactly as von Stephanitz determined it 100 + years ago. In his time the dogs were under-angulated and he worked to increase the length of the femur and tibia to maximize the drive, he almost got there prior to his death. The goal was achieved in the early 70’s starting with Marko v Cellerland who ironically was promoted as a working dog line. This ideal moderate and balanced hind angulation was consolidated only to be lost to the trend of overangulation in the early 90’s and it has got progressively worse ever since. Along with the resultant unstable wobbly hocks and excessively sloping topline it is now ‘almost’ accepted as normal and I read critiques of dogs that to me are grossly overangulated and it states ‘ very good hind angulation’ but often stating as though there is no co-relation‘ hocks should be firmer’. Von Stephanitz would be greatly saddened by this as I am sure people involved in working dogs must be.

 

http://www.louisdonald.com/the-evolution-of-the-back-of-the-gsd.html