Czech pedigree define??? - Page 6

@ emmit at  page 2 That is definitelly Czech pedigree promoting old style dogs. 

These true czech dogs,, reggarless of who brought them here, still were created by , and with, the same dogs in a majority of bloodlines today. Acally, the DDR dogs are a major influence in many czech dogs. As was the GSL.

    I have researched many a pedigree, of every line.including the straze czech dogs.

In all the pedigrees I see, I think duke has some of the oldest, truest czech dogs.

To say that if you have 2 pedigrees and they have Ellute  in it that they are just "pedigrees of an offspring with different collor pedigree " is quite simplistic. Quality of a dog  does not depends on one dog !

 Quality of the offspring depends on  each individual dog on a pedigree and what that dog brought in in combination with all the other breeding partners. 

The resulting offspring depends not just on genetic of thsi one dog nbuit also on the skill , success of the breeder's intentions  whichj are   based on the  culture which dictated himin his mind  to produce such offspring. Any breeder  can take Ellute or any other such dog and produce completely  different dog based on the matching of dominant  and recessive traits and dovetailing the virtues and compensating for  problems and promoting certain characteristics.  That depends on the knowledge of all dogs on the pedigree, their littermates  and what they produced. If I am from Czech I can take any such single dog and match it with a female in a way that I will d  try to get dog to my liking which is stemming from my culture and I can get - let say- strong working dog,... and someone else equally skilled breeder can match such dog with different female and based on his culture  produce a sport dog. Such dog can even be injected into Show lines . This on top of it may and does usually  take more then one generation thus combinations of these  topics are infinitive . Thus to say that "any Ellute offspring, at the end of the day it is all Ellute offspring with a different colour pedigree."   is not just  quite simplistic but such  view of genetics is  totally incorrect. 

JMO

Prager Hans

Kitcat it mattered who brought these dogs here because if it would not be for me these dogs would be dead now.  After communism died from 1500 Czech border patrol   dogs about estimated  1/3 were adopted to homes of retired soldiers usually without papers and the rest was put down. If it would not be for me and Jiri and our preservation program of these dogs and the demand I and Jiri created in USA and elsewhere  then they would be all gone. Czechs hated communist z Ps dogs which symbolized their oppression . Fortunately due to my love of GSD  I could see past that hatered and see wonderful dogs. That does also include the understanding of these dogs and how they were created. As f ar as duke goes I will not question  quality of his dogs and I respect what he does even so i often disagree with him. But he even denies usefulness of male bloodlines which is a principle on which all z Ps dogs were created. So to say that he, the man from Holland,  has dogs with the most Czech pedigrees of the old style Czech dogs is IMO  not so regardless of the good  quality of dogs he produces. On his website he does not even claim of breeding Czech dogs. And mainly he claims that he is living in Czech because it is economically convenient. Nothing wrong with that. 

 Prager Hans

Regardless of the bloodlines, while the males certainly do matter, it is the females which provide the foundation on which to build the house--even when you think you are building a kennel or a line on a your males, you're really building it on their mothers.

The top studs are selected for their dominance (of their genes) so that they pass their genes down the progeny even with genetically  lesser females. That is what makes them top studs.  Thus they pass their traits on most females.That is unless the female is more genetically dominant or not compatible with such stud. As far as raising the pups the environment which the mother provides is definitely more important then the male that is since the male is almost never around the pups which he produced.   Thus genetic influence even so  basically 50:50 the top studs have more influence through their dominant genes then most females. If you breed just a nice doggie to nice doggie where the male is not particularly of genetic dominance and all is genetically equal,.. then the mother is more important since the environment provided by the mother will dominate and non dominant genes of the male. 

And since male blood lines are mostly comprised with dominant ( by their dominant genes) studs then the male bloodline is more influenced by males then by females. if someone breed crappy  dogs whose genes are not dominant then such line will disappear quickly. Some breeders do consider  female bloodlines lines but basically that is proven non effective thus you do not hear about it too much. 

 This all is old and proven fact in dogs and horses, cats, rabbit and any domestic animal breeding. It works I have tried it and i learned it from successful breeders and most breeders who mean anything are using this fact. personally I have heard this first time from  horse breeders when i was little boy and my brother in law who is one of the best horse breeders in Czech fully agree with it. He taught me about studs improvers and maintainers and the non studs. Some horses ( or dogs) improve on progeny with all females some only with some and it is important to know with what females.  Some just are capable maintaining certain qualities and some do not improve. This can be applied to dogs too. That is why some studs produce well with some females and with others they do not. That is just the practical fact of breeding dogs. It works,... like it or not. I and my partner and most successful breeders have produced based on this knowledge literally  thousands of litters( That includes z Ps breeding program)  and it works like a charm. I periodically  encounter people who say it does not work but those are the people who have  not try it. So what can I tell you? :)
 Prager Hans

Why are Czech dogs so unrepresented in Leo, sport, mwd....seems they are mainly purchased by dog collectors as museum pieces.


Hell trying to get an owner to show you old style Czech dog doing anything at all is dang near impossible and when they do it is no better than just any other dog, some good, some average etc.

As much as Czech breeders dis sport, they seem to like showing their rare videos of their dogs doing standard B&H, left arm sleeve bite, guy with a whip.....


But geez can the peeps that promote them type & talk epics. Give me an Elluite son any day tho.

Hans, guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Males get hundreds of opportunities to spread their genetics around, so while we hear of their successful progeny, there are likely a similar number of not-so-successful get as well. If given the choice between a male that is an outstanding producer and has a steady lineage of equally strong and top-producing males behind him, or a female that is an outstanding producer and has a steady lineage of strong, top-producing females behind her, I'd let you have the male--I want the bitch.  

relax hans :)  im no threath  , I dont have to live from my breeding, do about two litters a year, so also dont need sales pitches etc, and allmost all pups go to Law enforcement so you dont see them in pdb and internet a lot VK4 GSD

the difference is in the balance of drives, many people see a dog bite but dont understand why he bites or what triggered him to bite at the first place, I dont want dogs that only want to retrieve the sleeve

this is not exclusively for czech dogs, but I find it more and easyer in the old czech lines, these dogs are referred to in german as linkslastig(dont know if I write it correct) and are not so much appreciated by sportpeople and sport breeders so there are less and less used for breeding and kept

Now for my job I select, buy and train streetdogs for Police and Army and send dogs to many continents and there is more and more demand for these type of dogs and lesser and lesser supplie also in malinois

I tested 12 dogs last weekend and was able to find only one dog that would engage  after I lost the sleeve and stick, now that being said I understand that sport and familydogs should be different than that

if you start to breed for strong dogs you will allways have some dogs that  can go to families and sport, but when you start breeding for easy sportdogs and/or pets it is not so much likely that you will have a bunch of dogs that fall upwards so to speak

for this reason I think it is importand to keep some lines available at all times with a different balance of drives and caracteristics

the male lines theorie is old and was used in dogs and horses but is cought up by genetic knowledge, and also no evidence if found of some dogs having superman type genes that force themselves on to unborn pups in the female dog

one of the strongest and in my opinion best west line of today is build on female line of orla schiffslache/konnie cornerplatz,