Asko von der Lutter - Page 6

In 2006 he had nine in top 55, in 2009, it is written that he had 6 to 9 in WUSV. In 2005, he had 8 dogs in top 58, of which 4 were different than the 2006 year in which he had the nine in top 55. This includes #2 Quincy v Waldwinkel, and also in 2005 he had 13 progeny that competed. I have to believe he brought "something" to the table over all these years with this kind of success. Or he's just a lucky son of a gun!

Those numbers are to a degree influenced by popular sentiment of the time.  If it were more than popular interest, wouldn't he have produced at least one progeny in the top 50 of the 2010 BSP or WUSV?  With at least 9 breedings in 2007, his most recent progeny are 3 years old.  The top 5 dogs in both the WUSV and BSP this year were even older.

 I've really been enjoying this thread - you have all pretty well convinced me that Asko is the good and reliable producer that many claim he is, and deserves his well established reputation. It was confusing to hear such different opinions on this one dog, and having seen some questionable behaviours in some of his progeny, I wondered how it all added up. I do know intimately of some of the details and circumstances that involved some of the nervy and unstable behaviour of his 2nd generation  progeny, so I'm quite comfortable saying that it was not handling or training issues, but core nerve and temperament issues. But all seems to point to the influence (for bad) from a different source, and not from Asko. Of course, Asko would have been the most well-known ancestor in these dogs' pedigree, it seems to me that finger pointing would fall on him, by default, only because it was the main dog that everyone could identify off the top of their head, coupled with rumours and personal opinions that Asko had "issues", well, you can see how that plays out. 

But reading about the personal experience of many with Asko, Asko first and second generation offspring, and about the sheer number of BSP and WUSV  competitors he produced, well, all that is very impressive.  

Daryll,
Give me a dog with comparable results over the period of longevity that he has produced. Give me a dog that has his numbers overall, or his consistency from year to tear for almost 10 years of producing. Its easy to keep moving the bar to seek higher accomplishment, but I want another dog in past 25 years to compare to, to show its popularity as opposed to accomplishment. Abstract debate is fine for beginners, but I like the concrete.

The numbers seemed to tell the story to me.

Aly vom Vordersteinwald has put more offspring into the BSP top 50 than Asko.  If I went 25 years back, it could be argued that the standards were not the same.  Aly and Asko's careers were of a similar timeframe.  While Aly placed 69th in the BSP-97, Asko placed three years consecutively in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place, respectively in BSP-98 to BSP-2000.  The top 50 progeny of Aly spanned 8 years, and those of Asko 6 years.  The numbers may have spiked a smidge better than Aly's, but that could be expected from such an excellent display of performance three years consecutively.  But, as I'm sure you know....... the best performers are not necessarily the best producers.  Undoubtedly, he couldn't be all that bad as a producer, but I would certainly rate Aly over Asko.

My last post on this dog.....if you were to check the archives you would see that I often link Asko and Aly togther for being prolific producers of high sport dogs. The strengths of the dogs are different and overlap. They both are good hip producers and while Aly is also known to throw excellent conformation for a workingline, Asko has produced well with many different females. The difference in the two dogs, imo, is Aly is sought to compliment or offset deficiencies in hips or structure. Asko was more used for throwing higher work qualities in the "sport"world. Still, there are many good females that need improvement in structure or hips that when mixed with Aly the result has been excellent. But Asko has just been a goodhigh end sport producer period. I don't breed for high sport dogs but there are many high sport dogs that have great genetics to compliment what I do seek to produce. Look I don't care if people like Asko or not....I just like to see people form opinions based on good information and not people's personal likes or dislikes.
Certainly, in the sport world, Aly and Asko are two of the top producers in past 15 years, so when I think that comments like"he couldn't be all that bad as a producer" is made in reference to one of the top sires in breeding high end sport performance....then I fail to see the where the opinion is grounded in facts.

FACTS

BSP top 50 slots filled by the progeny of Asko:34
BSP top 50 slots filled by the progeny of Aly:42

I'm not trying to take anyone's reverence of Asko away from them.  You asked  for a comparable producer, and I gave you one.  If you need more detailed breakdowns of the numbers throughout the timeframe, the names of the dogs, I can do that as well.  I just didn't see the need to overy divert from the subject of Asko (whom I say again, I've paid little mind for, and have nothing to add about him).  Just wondered why he peaked so high, yet plummeted so quickly as a top producer for sport.  That hints of "flavor popularity" to me.

In one single year the BSP2000 top 50 placements were filled by the progeny of Fero, Gotthilf, Troll, Aly, and Yoschy.  That's three generations worth, and that speaks to me of producing strength.  I've said years ago, that Asko's too young as a producer and we'll just have to see.  Doesn't mean he won't leave a definitive impact, only that I have reservations about placing my bets on him.  Primarily, because he's a relatively new distinguished line.  His sire Dino produced reasonably well also, and to me, it appears as an good early beginning.

Daryle,
You WIN !  Asko can be any thing you want to project....I have had both dogs in pedigrees and both of these dogs are now active patrol dogs with PD's. So it served my purpose. It really doesn't matter what I think anyway....just trying to help newbies get balanced picture.

It wasn't like I was trying to "win".  I'd personally be more interested in hearing comments about what breeders believe he puts into his offspring, because I've never really known in detail.  I was guessing high drive and trainability, but aggression and slow-maturity rate surprised me.  His record speaks well, and so does .the fact that respectable kennels have utilized him.  I relish hearing more testimony about the "inner" Asko, what specific characteristics he's producing.

This "snapshot" of Asko's production stats was taken 12/14/07, so wouldn't include his most recent offspring's data.