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by 1doggie2 on 14 February 2010 - 18:02
I agree with the open and honest, so you can breed away from the issues. The pedigree has VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land all thru both sides of the blanket and he is a well know carrier for the dwarf gene. There is another dog in Ireland that carries the dwarf gene and produces them if a bitch with Uran is used, he is also a VA dog.
by hodie on 14 February 2010 - 19:02
I wonder where people get information about what dogs carry genes for dwarfism? Most of the actual research that has been done has never been published. As well, again, there are different causes for dwarfism, and therefore, different manifestations.
In fact, if we were truly knowledgeable about all genetic conditions that are possible, and IF we could control the situation, I am not certain that we would ever breed out all unwanted conditions and diseases. We have not done so even with the genetic defects we know about in humans. And the broader question is whether we should become too overzealous. NO organism is going to be perfect, and I believe that at the very foundation of every issue, short of injury or acute illness, all things are genetic. I can see that by being too careful we further reduce the gene pool. That serves no organism, including humans or dogs.
Finally, we will never, ever have control of the genome of any breed. There will always be thousands and thousands of people breeding dogs, of whatever breed, without the slightest forethought to genetics, or genetic testing. They are the kind that breed only for the money they think it will bring, who don't do anything to really learn about the breed and what makes a "breed worthy" dog, and they are also certainly not going to spend a lot of money on any genetic test or even test for brucellosis, for example.
So I think we must be very careful not to walk on a very slippery slope. If one looks here at this DB, one sees just how many dogs are bred, most of which appear at face value to have nothing special about they that would suggest they are, in fact, breed worthy. It is a small microcosm of the broad picture.
As someone said above, about all you can do is make peace with yourself and hopefully that will mean you have done a lot of soul searching and considered all issues before allowing any dogs to mate. The problem is that what is ethical to some, is certainly not ethical to others.
In fact, if we were truly knowledgeable about all genetic conditions that are possible, and IF we could control the situation, I am not certain that we would ever breed out all unwanted conditions and diseases. We have not done so even with the genetic defects we know about in humans. And the broader question is whether we should become too overzealous. NO organism is going to be perfect, and I believe that at the very foundation of every issue, short of injury or acute illness, all things are genetic. I can see that by being too careful we further reduce the gene pool. That serves no organism, including humans or dogs.
Finally, we will never, ever have control of the genome of any breed. There will always be thousands and thousands of people breeding dogs, of whatever breed, without the slightest forethought to genetics, or genetic testing. They are the kind that breed only for the money they think it will bring, who don't do anything to really learn about the breed and what makes a "breed worthy" dog, and they are also certainly not going to spend a lot of money on any genetic test or even test for brucellosis, for example.
So I think we must be very careful not to walk on a very slippery slope. If one looks here at this DB, one sees just how many dogs are bred, most of which appear at face value to have nothing special about they that would suggest they are, in fact, breed worthy. It is a small microcosm of the broad picture.
As someone said above, about all you can do is make peace with yourself and hopefully that will mean you have done a lot of soul searching and considered all issues before allowing any dogs to mate. The problem is that what is ethical to some, is certainly not ethical to others.
by Blkdog on 14 February 2010 - 21:02
I know when my male sired the litter with a dwarf in it, I researched it as much as I could and I found a site that was pretty informative, and please don't ask me why I didn't save that site because usually I save everything!! These three male dogs were listed as the three boys who started the whole dwarfism problem... Hein v. Richterbach, Casar vd. Malmannsheide, and Vello zu den Sieben-Faulen. Unfortunately those three dogs were in both my male & the female's pedigree as well as many others pedigree's, way back. But I also understood the vet to say that if you breed a male & female that are linebred on Yago's line in the 4-5 generation that you are more likely to get a dwarf. He claimed that past that would be fine to breed it was just too close when you got to the 4-5 generation. We both decided not to breed them again, but I did keep a male out of that litter that I intend to breed later on, and I will not breed to him to a female with that particular similar line, I plan on breeding out of that line... Or at least make sure that they are not linebred on it...
by Louise M. Penery on 14 February 2010 - 22:02
"But I also understood the vet to say that if you breed a male & female that are linebred on Yago's line in the 4-5 generation that you are more likely to get a dwarf. He claimed that past that would be fine to breed it was just too close when you got to the 4-5 generation."
I assume that by "Yago", t you mean Yago Wildsteiger Land (grandsire to Uran and sire to Ulk Arlett and numberous other top dogs). In the past, I have heard it said that one should avoid linebreeding on Yago.
Another known producer of dwarfs in more current linea is VA-1 Lasso Neuen Berg
I assume that by "Yago", t you mean Yago Wildsteiger Land (grandsire to Uran and sire to Ulk Arlett and numberous other top dogs). In the past, I have heard it said that one should avoid linebreeding on Yago.
Another known producer of dwarfs in more current linea is VA-1 Lasso Neuen Berg
by Blkdog on 15 February 2010 - 01:02
Louise,
Yes, I should of listed his full name. =) That was the dog that was in our lines when we got our dwarf pup, 4 & 5 th generation... I have not heard of Lasso passing it on, but I will definately be cautious of the lines and try to breed away from that. Thanks for the info...
Yes, I should of listed his full name. =) That was the dog that was in our lines when we got our dwarf pup, 4 & 5 th generation... I have not heard of Lasso passing it on, but I will definately be cautious of the lines and try to breed away from that. Thanks for the info...
by kesyra on 15 February 2010 - 15:02
I am not surprised that line breeding to Yago Wildsteiger Land is inadvisable, as he himself is inbred 3:2 on Palme (Dam of Uran) and 3:3 on Lasso di Val Sole. Lasso, I believe, was himself a carrier.
I have today written to LABOKLIN (UK) and Utrecht University in the Netherlands and asked about the reliability of the DNA test. The reply from Utrecht University is below. The link is interesting as it explains the heritability and signs of dwarfism:
Dear Mrs. Stevens,
Indeed, about one year ago, after more than 10 years of research, we have identified the mutation causing pituitary dwarfism in GSD. Based on this finding we have developed a DNA test that identifies not only dwarfs but also carriers. If all breeding animals would be tested, pituitary dwarfs do not have to be born anymore. Because this test identifies the mutation the test is highly reliable.
For the test you need to send us 4 ml. of blood in an EDTA-coated tube. The costs of the test are Euro 100 (excl. VAT). Attached you will find a form with all information.
You can find more information on the website of one of the owners of a GSD dwarf:
www.saartje.stoethoeve.nl
This website also provides the information in English.
Do not hesitate to contact me if you need more information.
Yours sincerely,
Hans Kooistra, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ECVIM
I have today written to LABOKLIN (UK) and Utrecht University in the Netherlands and asked about the reliability of the DNA test. The reply from Utrecht University is below. The link is interesting as it explains the heritability and signs of dwarfism:
Dear Mrs. Stevens,
Indeed, about one year ago, after more than 10 years of research, we have identified the mutation causing pituitary dwarfism in GSD. Based on this finding we have developed a DNA test that identifies not only dwarfs but also carriers. If all breeding animals would be tested, pituitary dwarfs do not have to be born anymore. Because this test identifies the mutation the test is highly reliable.
For the test you need to send us 4 ml. of blood in an EDTA-coated tube. The costs of the test are Euro 100 (excl. VAT). Attached you will find a form with all information.
You can find more information on the website of one of the owners of a GSD dwarf:
www.saartje.stoethoeve.nl
This website also provides the information in English.
Do not hesitate to contact me if you need more information.
Yours sincerely,
Hans Kooistra, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ECVIM
by AmbiiGSD on 15 February 2010 - 15:02
Interesting information, re: the genetic testing, which raises a serious question.
If we eliminate the mutated gene for dwarfism out of the breed, by testing and only breeding from none carriers... just what other traits will we be losing?
And just how limited would this make an already bottled necked gene-pool within specific types?
In all the hoo haa and fuss people are creating on their little witch hunts currently, has one person actually stopped and thought about how wiping out one specific defect, could wipe out other genes and genetic traits that are neccasary for the breed as a whole?
Karen
If we eliminate the mutated gene for dwarfism out of the breed, by testing and only breeding from none carriers... just what other traits will we be losing?
And just how limited would this make an already bottled necked gene-pool within specific types?
In all the hoo haa and fuss people are creating on their little witch hunts currently, has one person actually stopped and thought about how wiping out one specific defect, could wipe out other genes and genetic traits that are neccasary for the breed as a whole?
Karen
by kesyra on 15 February 2010 - 15:02
Hi Karen
I totally agree, this is exactly what I have been saying in earlier posts.
I think the idea of the test is to have the information available, so that it can be used wisely.
The recommendation is that 2 carriers should not be mated together, as this would produce 25% dwarfs.
It would be OK to mate a carrier to a clear, as there would be no dwarfs, although 50% would be carriers. In this case, it would be sensible to test any progeny used for breeding.
Mating 2 clear together would give 100% clear, no dwarfs and no carriers.
Katrina
by AmbiiGSD on 15 February 2010 - 16:02
Sorry I worded that wrong.... let me try again.
Say for example:
My bitch carries Herding trait, this is something that I want to continue in my lines, however she doesn't display it, so to bring it out in the next generation, I select a dog with herding trait that i know will compliment and improve the working ability of my breeding.
However both the dog and the bitch carry the Dwarf gene.
By not doing that breeding based on the 'I might get a dwarf' in the litter, how much damage is that doing to the genetics of the dog?
I could be making major improvements to my lines, by taking that risk, and then breeding away from it in future generations.
The decision is going to be down to ethics and how much you are willing to take the risk.
Sometimes the benefits will outway the risks, and in a gene pool which is so limited and bottle necked, taking the carrier to carrier breedings out of the equation, could be disasterous in the long term. At the end of the day we have no clue how many carriers are out there, the amount of showlines that go back on Uran.... we could be wiping out half the gene pool if not more - the thought is actually quite scary.
Maybe we have to accept some of the genetic anomolies that have been created and have evolved in the breed, as the breed has evolved.
Just food for thought.
Say for example:
My bitch carries Herding trait, this is something that I want to continue in my lines, however she doesn't display it, so to bring it out in the next generation, I select a dog with herding trait that i know will compliment and improve the working ability of my breeding.
However both the dog and the bitch carry the Dwarf gene.
By not doing that breeding based on the 'I might get a dwarf' in the litter, how much damage is that doing to the genetics of the dog?
I could be making major improvements to my lines, by taking that risk, and then breeding away from it in future generations.
The decision is going to be down to ethics and how much you are willing to take the risk.
Sometimes the benefits will outway the risks, and in a gene pool which is so limited and bottle necked, taking the carrier to carrier breedings out of the equation, could be disasterous in the long term. At the end of the day we have no clue how many carriers are out there, the amount of showlines that go back on Uran.... we could be wiping out half the gene pool if not more - the thought is actually quite scary.
Maybe we have to accept some of the genetic anomolies that have been created and have evolved in the breed, as the breed has evolved.
Just food for thought.
by hodie on 15 February 2010 - 16:02
Karen,
When a specific genetic defect is found, more often than not it is not going to be associated with anything that should otherwise be lost in the gene pool or be of consequence.
It is also important to realize that there are other causes of severe growth retardation besides a pituitary dwarfism where the known genetic defect is present.
In my conversations with Dr. Kooistra, I learned a lot about his research. In the case of this DNA test for pituitary dwarfism, it tests for a simple autosomal recessive gene in ONE specific gene. The problem with the gene is that there is a deletion in the gene that is very important for the proper development of the pituitary gland. Though the actual genetic deletion has identified and can be found in the test, they do not yet know why the pituitary gland is so affected. The anterior pituitary is important, for the synthesis and secretion of 6 important hormones, one of which is growth hormone and another thyroid stimulating hormone that regulates thyroid function. So what is still a mystery is just how the genetic defect causes the pituitary not to function correctly. That is being studied. If the abnormality is present in one inherited gene from one parent, the dog is a carrier, but has a normal phenotype otherwise. If the defect is there and is in both copies, meaning one inherited from the mother and one from the father, then the dog will be a pituitary dwarf.
I have a very interesting and informative article provided by Dr. Kooistra. At the time he provided it, I asked why the genetic test and the research was not yet published and he answered essentially that they were looking for a lab to conduct the tests commercially and that they wanted to wait to publish their research in a top journal. I will ask him if he would permit me to post his article, and if so, direct you to my web site where I can post it.
It is a very interesting topic, but we should not be afraid that if carriers were identified and dogs who were carriers were not bred to each other we would be seriously deleting the gene pool. On the contrary, we would be keeping the gene pool, but preventing the birth of these poor dwarf pups, and perhaps having less heartache prior to whelping with dead pups prior to, at birth or shortly afterwards.
When a specific genetic defect is found, more often than not it is not going to be associated with anything that should otherwise be lost in the gene pool or be of consequence.
It is also important to realize that there are other causes of severe growth retardation besides a pituitary dwarfism where the known genetic defect is present.
In my conversations with Dr. Kooistra, I learned a lot about his research. In the case of this DNA test for pituitary dwarfism, it tests for a simple autosomal recessive gene in ONE specific gene. The problem with the gene is that there is a deletion in the gene that is very important for the proper development of the pituitary gland. Though the actual genetic deletion has identified and can be found in the test, they do not yet know why the pituitary gland is so affected. The anterior pituitary is important, for the synthesis and secretion of 6 important hormones, one of which is growth hormone and another thyroid stimulating hormone that regulates thyroid function. So what is still a mystery is just how the genetic defect causes the pituitary not to function correctly. That is being studied. If the abnormality is present in one inherited gene from one parent, the dog is a carrier, but has a normal phenotype otherwise. If the defect is there and is in both copies, meaning one inherited from the mother and one from the father, then the dog will be a pituitary dwarf.
I have a very interesting and informative article provided by Dr. Kooistra. At the time he provided it, I asked why the genetic test and the research was not yet published and he answered essentially that they were looking for a lab to conduct the tests commercially and that they wanted to wait to publish their research in a top journal. I will ask him if he would permit me to post his article, and if so, direct you to my web site where I can post it.
It is a very interesting topic, but we should not be afraid that if carriers were identified and dogs who were carriers were not bred to each other we would be seriously deleting the gene pool. On the contrary, we would be keeping the gene pool, but preventing the birth of these poor dwarf pups, and perhaps having less heartache prior to whelping with dead pups prior to, at birth or shortly afterwards.
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