There is no serious reason this should not be a requirement for Schutzhund (IPO) - Page 5

Its a shame there is not a Sch4 ! 
Add the wall,  and various other tests that will test your dog and handler....if there was only working dogs that could gain the Sch 4 because of "shape - health - working ability" then great....
Those who can reach the Elite level, and get high marks can then be the WUSV / FCI competetion we see today.

Let Sch 1-3 be about breeding and 4 about working ability testing strength, courage, control. It could be the same sort of routine just made slightly harder, just like the difference between KNPV PH1 & PH2

If I saw a Show GSD passing Sch4, then to me they have tried to have the "desired look" , gained SchH3 for breeding and then proved a point with SchH4 ....then total respect will be given and rightly so. I would only hope it gained a VA rating and 100's of people used it for breeding...we might see a slight improvement.

But if that test was running for 10 years, and not one.. show GSD ever passed it, then it would prove a point reference the corruption and show judges that give points out like candy.





 

Be nice but tell the truth. Candy-coating it will do no good to anyone, least of all the dog. She needs to understand him and what motivates him to behave the way he does, so she can keep him from hurting someone and getting himself into trouble. JMO.

Titles are not the be all end all, but it's the only way 
we can tell over generations that dogs met a certain
standard of working ability/criteria. Otherwise, we will
end up with generations of untitled dogs that only limited
people know anything about.

How will I know Bob worked his dogs harder than what
SchH1-3 required?  Cause Bob's neighbor's cousin's sisterinlaw
told me? That leaves me wondering who the hell Bob is,
and what does he know? 

If Bob's dogs have recognized titles, I can start asking around
about them. I know where to start, and who to ask.

As always, the titles will be what you make of them.
There are cheats and  liars in every facet of life.  It's up to
the buyer to research before buying. 

Titles don't eliminate crap from being bred, thats the human part
of this equation that needs to be resolved somehow. There is simply
far too much profit made in the dog world to turn back the tables.

I get it, I know plenty of untitled dogs that are fantastic dogs. 
But, for those of you that say they mean nothing, why do you 
seek out titled dogs to purchase puppies from? Why not just
pick up the Pennysaver? Why bother paying to have a dog
titled and bred before importing? Because you all know, the
titles are the place you can start to do your research.
Why bother even worrying about health testing too?
Working titles are not the best system in the world for evaluating
a working dog, or a breeding dog, but it's about all we got right
now, and it's a good place to start.

We don't 'just' do schutzhund with our dogs. We actually don't
know of anyone that 'only' does schutzhund. Pretty much everyone
we know and train with does all sorts of things with their dogs.
Agility work, civil work etc etc etc. 

How sad do you think the breed would be if people stopped
doing any health testing or titling of dogs altogether?

Z:

       Not asking anyone to stop just a suggestion to improve the process. I,ve stood by my belief that "Show me the dog i,ll read about him latter". No one is saying don,t health check your dog but a healthy dog does not equate a dog suitable for the work it,s just a begining factor to be included into the equation. 

Perfect example "noch zugelassen" translated means Still allowable, The dog must be evaluated with all it,s attributes judged not just it,s hips but  how it is bred and with whom it is breed.


A stronger test for breed worhtiness is not a bad idea. IPO can still stand as a International sport title but there needs to be a GSD breed worthiness test a Schutzhund test. 

Bob, the breed test was always the SchH1 until they changed it and removed the attack out of the blind.  This is why I do the AWD1.  Wish it still had the old courage test, but at least when done correctly, the first bite is not a prey bite, but a defensive bite.  Even the AWD2 has an interesting attack by a second helper.  We have "title" options while also doing the IPO.  Plus, no one is saying that we must ONLY base our breeding decisions on the IPO.  It has always been up to the breeders themselves to ultimately decide who is breed worthy or not no matter the titles or testing used. 

Lisa

Bob you raise very good points.  I believe that in order for there to be "great" dogs in a breed, you also must have mediocre and even bad ones.  That being said, IMPO, temperament should be the #1 consideration.  Not that all the other considerations of conformation and working ability should be given the heave-ho, but of all the complaints one reads, temperament seems to be the worst one.  Hips and elbows are a statistical lottery with any large breed, and I am all for improving this in the breed, but having a dog with stellar joints and a non-existent temperament is not what I can live with. Knowing that a "perfect dog" is a myth, I'd rather have a dog with a few flaws that excels at the areas that are important to me but more important has a temperament that is atuned to me.  I'm not hooked on the sport, although I practice it, do see the importance of it and would like to see its apeal broadened among the populace. I understand that not everyone needs a dog that will climb a 2-meter wall, or that does a lot of the things that the better examples of the breed are able to do but it is good to have the capability.  That is why IMPO, a solid temperament is an essential objective in any breeding and why I think the Courage Test and the attack from blind should be brought back in.

I do agree that some of these tests should be injected into the competitions as maybe an IPO-4 or IPO+ designation, but the truth is that the governing bodies get a lot of input from the very breeders that kick out a dozen, or more, litters a year and are part and parcel of what ails the breed and sport, so I don't expect any big changes any time soon.

Old school had it correct. The palisade actually started in schutzhund.  I believe you can take the A-frame away.  How many retrieves are needed?  On the flat and over the jump should suffice.

Once again old school had it right. The attack out of the blind can be very telling.  I've seen dogs break camp on the gun shots. No one test gives a complete picture. All of the tests put together should tell the story.

For whatever reason we have trouble accepting the dog for what it is? Rare is the occasion when you breed one weak dog to another and get a good dog. Rare also is the breeding of 2 very good dogs and having a litter where ALL of the dogs are super.

Weak tests only produce more questions. Strong tests produce results with much fewer questions.  Like most things money changed the game.

Kyle