A Behavior Problem with Prince.. - Page 5

I don't have much knowledge here, but I have 9 year old working line male, he is almost 10 now, while back he decided to be alpha male in the family and started showing me his teeth and refuse to obey.

The simple way I addressed his issue - I became very hard on him than normal, kept him locked up, ignored him; and the results? - now he is mentally cure from absurd behavior he had toward me. (Now, he is the most wonderful dog in the family)






Shtal.

I appreciate all the posts...Every one! ; even Jenni's,,,

I am embarrassed about it all. I do not blame Prince for his behavior. I have actually stated in other posts that I believe that with a confident and knowledgable handler Prince would be a heck of a dog..

It is very hard at times to communicate via Internet, but I do not want anyone to get the idea that my casual way of speaking about Prince's behavior is evidence that I do not see that this is a serious issue. I know what Prince is capable of believe me ...

I also know that I have fallen very short of getting him under appropriate control. Like workingdoz said about needing to follow through with what I learned from the trainer ( Kelly ) ...It is easy to fall back into denial mode. Especially true when a good trainer ( without having to travel to IL ) is so hard to find.

I know what needs to be done. It's the timing and the strength to do it that I am struggling with...I do not like the idea of hurting him and that might be why I am not giving it my all...I need therapy obviously..

A trainer is going to tell me what I have already learned from Kelly and the folks here..It hurts me to hear that some think of me and Prince as a disaster waiting to happen. But I do understand why you all would think that..I am very careful, but there is always the chance of something unexpected happening. If Prince is not under control someone IS going to get hurt badly.. 

I want to handle this myself. I do not trust just anyone with my animals. At this time Kelly is a 6hr trip and I do not see that trip being possible right away. Also, it is hard to accomplish very much in a weekend and that is about all the time I have at this time to travel.

Kelly has shown me what to do. It is a matter of me doing it..The only one that stands to get hurt in it is me and that is only if Prince decides to come up the leash at me which I do not think he will do. If he does , I do not think he will kill me...

 My husbands collar correction has made an inpact on Prince. He has not charged the door barking since that time. Also, my husband told me today that he collar corrected Prince again yesterday ( when I was not around ) for another inappropriate behavior. Prince resonded by going and lying down quietly.  I thinx I think xs 

I think the bite in the a** got his attention. I look at it as a blessng ..Better that my husband get nipped in the butt rather then a guest..It was a wake up call!! This gives me hope that me and my husband know what to do. It is rather a matter of just doing it. Me not being afraid to hurt Prince. My husband not being afraid of hurting me; by hurting Prince. And me not hurting my husband for hurting Prince...It's a viscious circle...

I want to tackle each problem one at a time and start with putting him in a down and enforcing it!!..I think that will solve about half of my issues...

I want to hear what you all have to say,,Even if I don't happen to like it..I appreciate every opinion and post..

Thanks,

Deanna..



 

For all of you who say that your too small to correct with a leash.....I learned by lunging horses that were rowdy and flighty, if the line is long enough use your weight to your advantage and place one hand on the leash that is attached to the collar end then take the leash end and bring it behind you then grab ahold of the end with your other hand. Almost like your sitting on the leash. I hope i described it right. Ive used it more than once for mastifss who decided they wanted to go and I didnt. If it can work for horsea and mastiffs, it will work for a shepherd.

Deanna, I can say one thing for you, you are trying and taking this like a champ. You need to take the human aspect out of this and TREAT HIM LIKE A DOG. He needs to be hurt a bit to get back in line. If I worried every time I made a correction, I would have never made it this far. I'm sure others will agree. Truth is...had he been hurt a few times you probably wouldnt be in this situation.

Read the chapter entitled "Fables and Foibles" in Kohler's Guard Dog Training. It will open your eyes to what you need to do.

This is a DOG, not a kid. One vigourous, sharp correction will accomplish far more than a hundred nagging corrections. Your husband found that out already.

I've lunged horses too, and Baugh describes exactly what you do to correct a rowdy horse that's bucking and plunging. You CAN do it!

"The instructor cautions the handler against the cruelties of light, nagging, unautoritavive corrections, that bmy their ineffectiveness, condition the dog, physically and mentally, to greater resistance." William Kohler's Guard Dog Training, Section II, pg. 14.

Deanna,
I would once again strongly suggest that you
either return to your trainer, have her come
to you, or ONLY work with Prince when someone
else is present at this point.
This is a safety issue, for YOU.

As you know, you have essentially encouraged
his 'climbing up the rank ladder' behavior by
allowing it to continue and get worse.

My only concern would be for you at this point,
the fact you have admitted being unable to 'get physical'
with him due to your size.

He is nothing more than a punk at this point.

However, that will come back to bite YOU in the ass
so to speak, as you have been the worst of the
'offenders' by not only acknowledging but ignoring
his unwanted bahaviors, ergo, you have encouraged
them. Now, you are going to flip the tables  on him
and upset his world. I am assuming he has put
teeth on you already, if I am wrong, please clarify.

He will tolerate and possibly accept a correction from
someone who can physically pose a threat to him, ie:
your husband, as he has already done. However, when
it comes to you, he may very well challenge your new
'attitude', as he has been the king of the castle in his
mind. You have always deferred to him.

You have wanted to treat Prince like a human, he is a DOG.
He will treat you just like another DOG.

Thats all he knows how to do,  is to act like a dog,
because he is one.

You hesitate to do much with him because you don't want
to 'hurt' him, but yet he doesn't afford you the very same
courtesy. He will not hesitate to cause you harm.

Thats because he is a DOG. He only knows how to react
like a dog that was the alpha of the pack would when an
'underling' challenges him.

I would make this dog work for EVERYTHING. No more
'freedoms' in your world with him. He should be on a leash
at all times when he is 'loose' in the home etc. This will
allow you some ability to snatch up the leash and get on him
when he blows you off. And you need to do this for even the
SLIGHTEST flip of the dewclaw. If you are working on trying
to 'set him up' to be able to correct serious behaviors like the
door issue? Have a second line on him to a second collar so
that in the event he turns his aggression/frustration on you,
someone can grab the line to help you. Please take this
shit seriously. If nothing happens, then you can come back
and mock me   But if/when he does take a shot at you,
be as prepared as you can.

Where are you located? There may very well be someone
with some good 'hands on' experience closer than you think.

You have to rock this punks world and knock his ass back
to the bottom of the heap where he belongs.

Will you always have to be this hard on him? No.
BUT, you will have to be aware of the seemingly
insignificant 'little' things that allow him to start
his climb back up the ladder of 'He/She who rules'.

Even a meek dog can become an alpha if provided with
the right environment to 'grow' in.
I just don't think you have ever really looked at Prince
as though he was a dog. He hasvbeen your 'cuddle toy'.
This is a recipe for disaster with a lot young male dogs.


Hey, admitting there is a problem is half the battle
But please, take the above advice of not working with
him when you are alone seriously. He will NOT hesitate
to put his teeth on you if you 'piss him off'. A correctly
fitted muzzle will allow some safety as well if you have 
to work with him while you are alone.

I agree with many of the posts here, especially Felloffher, Jenni78, and workingdogz. I won't give you training advice on this sort of issue over the internet... I will only say that if this was my dog, starting immediately his time would be 100% managed. Kennel or crate or leashed. He should NOT have free run of your home. Do not give him the opportunity to make a mistake or cross a line until you are able to discuss this with a good trainer. A muzzle is a good idea.

Dogs like predictability.  The dog is probably under more stress having way too much freedom and privilege than he will be with more structure and control.  No one has stepped up and showed him the boundaries so now he's making his own.  Show/tell him what you expect him to do, reward him for doing it, and find ways of correcting or preventing him from doing anything else.  This is not just correcting the bad behavior but making the expectations clear and having him earn privileges like being free in the house or be near guests as they come and go.  Google "nothing in life is free".  I would use that, along with correcting the bad/dangerous behaviors.  Also make sure he has some sort of appropriate outlet for his drive and energy.  If he's smart and protective can he do Schutzhund training or something like that? 

 Many of the suggestions I am hearing are very much the same as I was instructed to do by Kelly and some of the other trainers we all know and love from the database... 

Examples are the  "Nothing in Life is Free" concept, having boundaries, structure, consistancy, having a collar on with a short leash to quickly correct even small innappropriate behaviors, Obedience, and then MORE obedience, I have a good muzzle for times when I feel the need for that extra assurance,..

I have been neglecting all the good advice I received. When Prince started to accept his place in our world I became comfortable. I realize that I need to be consistant daily in treating Prince like a dog, a GSD at that. I have created a punk and workingdogz was not the first person to tell me that..I have been busy with work and other things and have not been as dedicated as I had been at spending quality time working with Prince and focusing on his/mine areas of weakness,,,I own that..

However, I believe I can correct these issues or at least get the issues with Prince's  under control. I posted on the database because I needed the encouragement and the accountability of the folks here on the database...I love this place ...Not that any of us are perfect and not that all the advice found here is always good, but we do care about our GSD and helping eachother to enjoy our GSD's to the fullest..

To answer Workingdogz question, Prince has never put his teeth on me. He has vocalized his disapproval of my corrections at times with snarls, but never has he put even a lip to me. The only time that I have felt that this might be a potential problem has been where the fourwheeler is concerned. That darn thing fires him up so intensley that he almost has the look of redirecting on me, but he will get his ball and take his aggression out on it..I think that is directly related to my nagging corrections instead of giving him one that knocks him off his feet and redirects his thought process....

 The door charging at this point is much better..I had the whole family walk down the hall and out the door a dozen times while Prince was in a down. He broke his down once, was corrected and stayed put for the remander of the exercise.

I know this will be one of the easier behaviors to correct. There are a few others that will be much more difficult and will require me reading Princes body language to address it. We are a family of poker players and we all laugh about each of us having a "tell" when we are bluffing or about to raise ect,,Prince will stare with his mouth open then in a quick switch he will close his mouth and exploid,,His mouth closing is his tell or is it his hard stare???..However, he is also sneaky about it and acts like he is not paying attention and then react..I have to learn to read his body language better..Reading a dogs body language is not as easy as some think...Atleast for me it's not...

Again, I do realize the dangers of dealing with these situations. Prince is a sharp, intact 2 year old male that has been allowed to be a punk again..I do not take this lightly. If it appears that way then it is because I must lack the ability to communicate clearly over the Internet...

Deanna,,,,

Great Deanna! You are halfway there

Ok, so no teeth on you, yet. Very glad to read
that! But, please don't think for a second he won't.

There will likely be a time when the two of you go to war,
and don't think for a second he won't escalate to that point.
For now, snarling has been all he needed to do.
But, he has grown and matured mentally since your
first addressing his issues and he may feel he now
has to up his ante to get his point across to you.

Just be safe is all. He may very well be one of those
dogs that you have to take to 'school' once every few
months for a little 'tune up' until he is a senile senior.

Get yourself and him back on track, make a point of doing
some strict/militant obedience every day. Make him work for
his meals too. Keep that leash on him in the home so he can
be corrected right away, from a distance, rather than having
to make a grab for the sharp pointy end.

Seems like you have a plan and are ready to follow it, perfect!
I don't think you were minimizing his issues, I just was not sure
if you knew how serious this could get. It's obvious you are a very
committed dog owner, Prince is very lucky

Before I say anything else let me say I am all for using the least amount of correction that conveys the message effectively and only when the dog clearly understands what is expected.  Ok..having said that there is obviously problems with leadership and rank that have to be addressed constantly from the way you no longer EVER let your dog walk through a door or out of a room without waiting for you and never let him demand anything but only gets whatever on your terms. 

PRACTICAL excercise I suggest for this specific issue is put a long line on him, have your husband order him to down some feet away from the door (I hope you have already taught Prince that when he is given a command like sit or down it means to stay there until he is released by another command-if not you need to work on that)
When he is down you have whomever walk to the door and the second Prince breaks the down you correct.  You might have to do that many times on many different days.  You also need to make sure his dowm and sit are reliable so that no matter where you are or where he is when the command is given there is compliance.  You will also need to lines for that, one to another person or tree and one you have and when the command is given even if you are away from him he must listen or get a correction.

I do not think that you have the skill nor the dog the knowledge to properly use
an e-collar.  Improperly used you might get a more aggressive response than you can handle and eventually it might extend to just putting on the collar.  If he thinks the shock comes from you or your husband you might get a full blown attack.  They have their purpose with someone that is highly skilled, has excellent timing and a dog that already is under control.