who breeds the hardest dog - Page 5

I'd say, though, that the good high-level competitor with one of those dogs is going to try the higher-level e-collar and then go to other training methods to create more reasons for the dog to let go when asked. Might also go back to the e-collar as reinforcement, but always and only reaching for a "bigger hammer" only creates a fight/conflict *or* destroys the dog, eventually.

No matter whether the dog is hard or soft, simply upping the pain quotient isn't good training. If the dog is clear on what to do and why and also what the benefits of that action are, then less pressure will be needed because the "path" to the desired behavior is the easy one.

If the dog is confused and only knows one thing--and that's not how to stop the pain--then any dog will "need" hard corrections. It has little to do with the dog's hardness--it can have more to do with the dog's drive and understanding. Drive =/ hardness, but it can take its place sometimes. But don't mistake a dog high in drive for a dog who is necessarily hard.

I like Slamdunc's emphasis on resiliency. To me, hardness = resiliency + high pain threshold. And I think the resiliency is the more important part of that equation.

Christine

I'm trying to understand what you "guys" are trying to describe as hardness, etc.  I'm kinda more pictoral type.  I like to "see" words in action.  

If a dog is in drive in a heeling routine, just practice now, and he is doing something incorrect, the handler does a leash correction and bang! the dog responds with a corrected response.  No negative reaction here, just took the correction and respond with the correct requirement, and stays in drive.  This is resiliency and soft dog. Right?  However, the dog knows after this oen correction, that this is the correct requirement and does not do this again. Smart dog! But soft.  Right?  

If that same correction is made with a hard dog and this dog just continue ignoring the correction, multiple prong or e-collar corrections is followed, also ignored but now the dog becomes aggressive towards handler, but eventually gets it.  Hard aggressive dog!  Right? However, in the next turn of the routine, the dog does the same thing, and you have to do the same corrections, and on and on.  Still hard and aggressive dog.  Right? Stubborn/dumb dog as far as I'm concern.

Now transition this into a hold and bark routine.  Same response!

Now which do we want again?

If a dog is in drive in a heeling routine, just practice now, and he is doing something incorrect, the handler does a leash correction and bang! the dog responds with a corrected response.  No negative reaction here, just took the correction and respond with the correct requirement, and stays in drive.  This is resiliency and soft dog. Right?  However, the dog knows after this oen correction, that this is the correct requirement and does not do this again. Smart dog! But soft.  Right?  



Sounds like a good dog to me.  Not soft but biddable.  That type of dog would be my preference.

I think what many of us DON'T want is a soft dog that cowers, loses focus and drive when being corrected, submissive pee's etc. 

I know what you mean about stubborn dogs, and  these dogs that need firm repeated corrections.  Sure they can take a correction just fine, but need to be told the same thing much more often and with much more force.  However, maybe the corrections were not strong enough and consistent enough from the get go, which makes it that much harder later on.  That is what my problem was.  I treated this type of dog as I did my more biddable dogs, and she just tried to run rough shed over me.  Now we have an understanding.

I've also had a hard dog who was just plain tough, but not stubborn at all, and he did learn very quickly.  He sometimes argued, and his obedience wasn't that quick at times, depending on whether or not he wanted to do what was being asked, such as, get out of the back of the truck, you are not coming with us, but I put a CGC on him with no problem. 
I really liked that dog, but I can see how he may not be a high points dog, especially in obedience.  I want another one like him.

If that same correction is made with a hard dog and this dog just continue ignoring the correction, multiple prong or e-collar corrections is followed, also ignored but now the dog becomes aggressive towards handler, but eventually gets it.  Hard aggressive dog!  Right? However, in the next turn of the routine, the dog does the same thing, and you have to do the same corrections, and on and on.  Still hard and aggressive dog.  Right? Stubborn/dumb dog as far as I'm concern.

Or maybe the dog doesn't know what the correct behavior is or what the correction was supposed to do. You can yank all you want, but it doesn't teach the dog anything different. A correction will (should) reduce the occurence of a behavior--but it doesn't teach what the correct behavior is.

helper in the blind out of sight of dog with handler on leash.  Hold and bark situation.  Handler with dog on leash walks the dog towards blind with heeling control.  Comes in front of blind put dog in sit position. Dog demonstrate lots of aggression but is under control.  Commands the dog to engage the helper in the hold and bark position but not bite and on leash.  Dog runs up and launches into helper, lots of aggression and fight.  Handler yanks leash and tell him out and dog lets go of sleeve and into  hold and bark position.  No problem.  The helper tries to move out of the blind, dog engages and puts on a great fight, getting "hit" until told to release.  Out.  Dog disengages (remembers the correction previously) and hold handler at bay while threatening to bite.  Good boy!

Same situation, dog launches into helper, fighting like a mad dog, and all the yanking and sharpened prong, juicing is ignored, but finally let go.  In hold and bark pattern, but then launches in again without helper trying to get away or any command.  After several times of this, the handler takes his dog off the field.  Hard dog yes?  Stubborn dog????? Dumb dog????

Is the latter the kind of dog we want?  IN a police apprenhension situation, this dog would not release on command, maybe even biting the police office when trying to pull him off.  Now consider this same dog in a family environment?  See a child or person and launches into them.  No amount of kicks and bat banging against his head would make him out.  Tough hard dog?  Absolutely. No doubt!   Do I want this kind of animal in my care???????? 

I want the hard dog you described but without the aggression problem. I have a one year old bitch hard like you described, different scenario. She is social, absolutely no aggression towards neutral people ( civil in fight with dcoy, but controllable). Working around goats, she caught a young goat that ran off. When I got to them, she had the goat by the back of the neck. I tried prying her mouth open,couldn't, then resorted to choking her off. That didn't work, she was almost passing out and still would not release. Thumped her on the head several times breaking only thing I could find in the woods where we were which was rotten branches laying about, that didn't make her release. Resumed choking her off, finally because of exhaustion and the goat struggling, her grip was broken. As the goat ran off, the female still wanted to get to the goat. That was months ago, and now when I take her in with the goats I can engage her if the buck comes at me, she doesn't hesitate, but now I can keep her from locking on in a death grip. I would consider her very hard, but trainable.

Wow, yeah, if I were a goat, I'd definately agree with you, that is one very hard, you better hope she's trainable against letting go of goats, kind of dog. 

Just loved your story! LOL

good job yardie.... Posts like these go all over the place because of different opininions on hard dogs. The hardest dogs I've ever seen were not for the majority of gsd enthusiasts. They were imported by someone who does it for a living also. Anyone with a 5-day work week like most of us won't get anywhere with them. Need to be worked everyday and ddefinately not a family companion/protector. There is a big difference in a hard dog & THE HARDEST DOGS. Ill leave the latter to those with the skill & time to work them. Blackthorn.... How is your hunter female doing? Her half sister in florida has one hell of a grip for a female. :) speaking of grip. A word I don't recall coming across on this thread is "POWER". All the hardess don't mean much if it bites like a shetland :)

good job yardie.... Posts like these go all over the place because of different opininions on hard dogs. The hardest dogs I've ever seen were not for the majority of gsd enthusiasts. They were imported by someone who does it for a living also. Anyone with a 5-day work week like most of us won't get anywhere with them. Need to be worked everyday and ddefinately not a family companion/protector. There is a big difference in a hard dog & THE HARDEST DOGS. Ill leave the latter to those with the skill & time to work them. Blackthorn.... How is your hunter female doing? Her half sister in florida has one hell of a grip for a female. :) speaking of grip. A word I don't recall coming across on this thread is "POWER". All the hardess don't mean much if it bites like a shetland :)

Vomeisenhaus--Hunter had the misfortune to be born right about when I burnt out for a few years on dog training/competing, so I didn't start doing anything with her until she was 4. I did some herding with her, but just 2-3 sessions of bitework at Sch. Village. So I can tell you she's got tons of prey and hunt drive, can take her anywhere (social but neutral), but she's the biggest b*tch on the property and rules the other dogs with iron jaws. She's got a full brother doing USAR in Georgia and 2 pups training in SAR. This is an Alex son searching in the wreckage of the tornados in Alabama last year....