___Bloodlines - Hardness and Aggression___ - Page 5

Good post Johann....I have seen many dogs today that are so prey driven that it becomes a major task to get the dog to do things that require balance or thinking focus. The type dog that the average good handler has more of a problem channeling the prey drive(especially when control and complex issues are at stake), then should be. Many of you have seen this type of dog, its not bashing prey drive, its reporting an unbalance of TOO much prey. Sometimes it is accompanied with courage, and sometimes when confronted with strong resistance they break down. I don't hear any knowledgable people saying prey drive is bad, just that extremes in prey is not optimum for this breed. I don't want a dog with more drive than brains or nerve. Balance,balance balance will always give better results. Why? Because optimally this breed was bred to think and figure out solutions to situations whether it is herding or police or seeing-eye. Patterned work can be channeled productively over a period of time to give impression of great work....but to me great work by this breed is when the dog acts decisively when confronted with something he has been trained for. Disgression and action is the strengths of this breed,imo, and too much prey or defense alters or makes that difficult to achieve.

I don't see anything wrong with using a dog that had won the BSP or WUSV if they had the right amount of hardness & aggression.
I'm lucky to have a trainer who has done Regionals, National's and WUSV. Someone is who is known for doing the backhalf of many events. I look at the scorecards and ask him about a number of the dogs that competed. He tells me which ones fought him the whole way down the field and which ones he carried like luggage. Which ones had grips like a alligator and which ones were nervy. Sometimes the best dog did win and other times the best dog didn't.  This info IMO helps when sel;ecting dogs for breeding.

I think it is up to the breeders to do their due diligence and find out what dogs brought it. I wouldn't say that a dog that won doesn't have it just from watching the video all the time. A really good helper can phenomenally help a breeders program.  The question is how many actually seek that advice/knowledge

He tells me which ones fought him the whole way down the field and which ones he carried like luggage. Which ones had grips like a alligator and which ones were nervy. Sometimes the best dog did win and other times the best dog didn't.

Good point, people who decoy usually have really good feedback about dogs. Also, some dogs will try and bite decoy if he bumps into him at some other time in the event, and some will not mind the decoy standing next to them for the picture, which tells you a lot about the dog.

Kyle described his female which sounds quite a lot like my female, (although I do not know what kind of a mother she is and mine will settle in the house), however, I wanted to discuss the whining.
We all see videos of these personal protection dogs and they are pulling and whining/squealing to get at the 'intruder'.  Kyle, low nerve, I think you called it.  What exactly is that?  Is it a negative thing?

Are higher prey drive dogs more vocal, and do you think the whining is something that is a necessary evil?

Jim, you said high prey dogs can be a pain in the ass to live with, would you go in to more detail please?  Does your dog  (who I think we all agree is a good working dog) settle in the house? Does he whine when excited?  Would your dog herd do you think?  Would he be safe with cats for example?

I know what I like in a dog, but mine are pretty much pets, and I am trying to figure out what a good GSD is really supposed to be like, so far as energy level, behaviour and being trustworthy around small animals etc.


Duke would you mind explaining what your dogs are like too as far as small animals, energy levels/settling down,  herding instincts, and this whining bit.

Thanks!

If looking at more recent dogs that seems to be of solid character and used much one example is studs that have mary/mona v haus pixner in the pedigree, seems like good bitches that are in many used studs, like sid, mike weinbergblick, wito weinbergblick. Other dogs from SCH-lines that impress me is sons or grandsons from etzel from stadtdfeld, like this one,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=651936

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzC67km_6-A

I think most like a healthy dose of preydrive, but it seems in some cases a flashy sportdog gets many breedings, while a dog that is a bit slower but shows good barking and fighting on the sleeve may not, surely that type of dog at least show it has a bit more potential for security/policework and should be more intressting for breeding, or? I understad quite many probably breeds dogs for IPO foremost, and doesn´t care how good the dog is for practical use,but if sport is sn´t the only goal I don´t see the point in letting a flashy sportdog get more breeding than a dog that is more balanced and also in some cases proven in practical work, or both sport/practical work.

Its very funny i love this post.
The reason i say this is because i got the super high drive lab and the hard GSD.
My dogs name is car von haus royal 
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=715186

i took him for his first 'real' sch protection work i showed the trainer how he can really get into a tug and how at times he just will not do it, BUT he loves the ball to death.(i need to update his pictue thats a old picture.)
When the helper came out he went crazy i mean when the helper came out with the tug(first) he bite it like he was trying to kill the helper. Then we came up with the pillow. Then we tried something different. we had the helper in a softer bite suit and he act like he was coming to hit me. When i tell you my turned into a truck i came like a truck. The guy came with the wip and czar went right for the man, jumed up to the uppe arm. Now this is just us testign the dog. I will be honest i dont really see him being the super sch3 champion and i know that but i was thinking something more like PSA but he is a personal protection dog for my family. 
When i really looked at my dogs pedigree all his dogs aer police dogs and i love the linebreeding on the dog personay lol. So its in his genes.

My friend got a go similar to Crack von Termorgen.
the dogs name is leo von haus royal. I will not lie. I personaly love this dog to death. The biggest proble mis he is highly dog aggresive and will kill anything. A very serious dog now for the novie. And has a death grip you wouldnt be but he is NO WERE A ALL PREY DOG but he is a very hard dog over all. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=706822

There's several really nice dogs from lines influenced by Cordon An-Sat and his progeny. Most of these lines consistantly produce a good balance of drive, aggression and solid nerve if the sire or dam posses these traits.

Not sure about many of the dogs being bred right now, but some of the Eqidius lines I've seen produce this type of temperment as well.

double post

"Kyle, low nerve, I think you called it.  What exactly is that?  Is it a negative thing?" ne

Low nerve and very high prey can make it very difficult for a dog to concentrate.  Everything that moves it wants to chase. We have a rought iron table with several arms joining to make a circle, this dog would circle the table all night, chasing a fur ball in the circle she could not reach.

The whining is bad.  Its bad because it does not allow the dog to concentrate and focus.  I actually was able to meet up with Bernhard Flinks who helped me stop the whining. The whing also conotes stress, low nerve.  The dogs high prey, with a desired prey object in view, and not allowed to seize the object, caused the whining.

Judron thanks for the vids.  Great control, especially long distance.  Its amazing how many agencies use a find and bite instead of doing more training.

Kyle

 

 Its amazing how many agencies use a find and bite instead of doing more training.

Kyle,

I also enjoyed those videos, and I know Bernhard very well.  That was a well trained dog and very impressive.  If you look at the stats of agencies using the Hold and Bark vs the Find and bite you will see the reason some agencies have changed.  Those videos were done in the '90's.  Agencies using the "Hold and bark" often have higher number of bad bites and lincreased liability.  There are several reasons for this, deployment factors, tactics and decision making. Our agency uses the "find and bite" and has not had one bad bite in years.  Our bites have gone down and apprehensions have gone up.  Tactics have changed and the days of releasing the dog into a building and waiting to hear what happens are over.  We do a lot of training, the switch was not in response to a lack of training.  Teaching a hold and bark is really not all that difficult.  Safety for the dog, for us, as well as innocent citizens or somewhat compliant suspects along with more advanced searching techniques drove the change.  This could certainly be the topic for another thread. 

RS, you asked:
Are higher prey drive dogs more vocal, and do you think the whining is something that is a necessary evil?

Jim, you said high prey dogs can be a pain in the ass to live with, would you go in to more detail please? Does your dog (who I think we all agree is a good working dog) settle in the house? Does he whine when excited? Would your dog herd do you think? Would he be safe with cats for example?

Not all high prey drive dogs are vocal.  Some can be, my female is very vocal but is extremely focused and driven.  She would vocalize while heeling, but be completely correct and intensely focused.  I could have taken that out of her but didn't want to sacrifice other things.  Boomer is loaded in prey and eerily quiet.  One of the traits that make him a good SWAT dog.  He does an intense silent guard and is quiet in everything else he does and extremely focused.  He will not settle in the house if there are any toys around.  if you remove all the toys he will lay quietly and relax.  If he has a kong he is non stop.  He rarely whines, and he rarely stops moving.  If I started herding with him as a pup he probably would have done it just fine.  At this point he would view the animals as prey and would try to kill them.  He is dog aggressive, but never displays this while working.  He has caught Raccoons, birds and other animals. I would not trust him for a second around cats.  I don't have cats so it is not an issue for me.   
 







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