Litter due - suspect lines? - Page 5

Thank-you again, for taking the time to read these posts and for your comments, really appreciated.   As most people know we are not afraid to talk about  Epilepsy and have had discussions on other GSD forums, but what we are afraid of is when people stop talking about it, some think we have no right to talk about it, as others have been in the Breed a lot longer,and we are not Breeders and they have more experience etc. As far as we are concerned Megan gave us the right to speak out about this condition.
There will also be these people that have hoped and expected  that now  Megan is no longer here, we will move on and  stop going on about Epilepsy, but as already seen not only on this discussion, there are many people who do want to talk about it, who do want honest information and to learn more about it.   We know many dog owners who are looking after dogs with Epilepsy, some dogs respond well to the meds. and have a good quality of life, some dogs struggle a bit, and some are on many meds, trying to help control the seizures and also are given valium applied rectally when the seizures start to get bad, some people find themselves where there life is governed by this disease, watching the hand on the clock when a seizure becomes too long, hoping the valium will help, all this is what a dog goes through with Epilepsy, and yet these dog owners are made to feel that they are the cause of what has happened to their dog, how can you appeal to certain breeders when all the time it is about them??? or trashing their perfect lines!!! What about their beautiful dogs? What about our Megan? Their beautiful dogs are still with them, or rehomed to another family, hopefully to have many happy, health years ahead of them, what about our dog.   Megan is not the first German Shepherd to have suffered and died with Epilepsy and sadly she will not be the last, but Megan will not be swept under the carpet, because to John and I and our Family she was much more than that dog who had Epilepsy.   As these affected lines continue to  be used  the risk of producing an other Epileptic dog increases.
If any Breeder has any Doubt of what has been said here, maybe they might consider sending in their pedigrees to the GSD Breed health Co-ordinator.


Margaret

We lived thru epilepsy with Johns first GSD.  He had multiple seizures and I cared for him during the seizure time.  It would go on for hrs and hrs sometimes - but his quality of life was so great between the episodes that John just could not put him down. 

He was medicated and lasted over a yr after his first seizure before John finally made his heartbreaking decision. 

I would not wish this on any living thing.  Not for either the epileptic or the care taker.  The price of a dog is just not worth passing on this horrible disease. 

JMO
Been on the receiving end
Marsha Mae A

Marsha,
Thank-you for sharing this sad and painful story, and do agree with you that the "price of a dog, is not worth  passing on this horrible disease" really wish more people thought like you, surely the Breeders who are using affected lines do need need to witness a dog having seizures to then make an informed choice not to use these lines.   We hope that wherever Megan is now, she is with Indy, in a field full of buttercups and surrounded by Fir trees where Indy can play hide/seek.
We also hope that she can rest peacefully with no more demons from hell descending upon her, and know that she gave us much more than we could ever give her.    Margaret and John
For Megan xxx

I am slightly confused re the comments re having pedigrees checked by Dorothy OR Chris. These ladies are NOT experts, they gave themselves these titles and suddenly they are known as experts!!!!!

I know quite a few peds that they have given the 'all clear' only to find out later on that there was epilepsy or something else lurking in there after all. They can only draw upon the info they are given and info they find on the internet (we all know how accurate that can be).

Of course the lines such as the ones mentioned above should be cut, yes it is sad and shocking that people still use these lines but why are we relying on people who hold no scientific qualifications at all and are not geneticists to tell us what lines are clear????!!!!!!

i dont believe these people have given themselves this title: its about having an enormous curiosity for knowledge. Most people will read an article and think this is interesting but then forget about it, certain people carry similiar traits and reading an interesting article they will need to find out more about what ever given subject it maybe. They dont stop they keep on going until that need for understanding is fullfilled, they dont give up because it is 'too hard' or they 'couldnt be bothered', and often researching one subject will open a new area of interest up that requires more research to find answers for new questions that arise, in some way it will be interelated to the original subject. They dont do it on purpose they are driven to find the answers to questions, and this is how a certain trait in some humans means they go on to develop a great knowledge on a specific subject.

re the pedigrees are you sure it isnt your friends telling lies I have known it to be put on certain breeders websites that they have had their pedigrees checked and they are clear of certain conditions having been told by a certain person/s only when confronted by that person/s they have removed it from their sites.
I tke it has you are back on here along with a few others taking it in turn posting that there as been another fallout in the LC Coloured breeders camp!

Re your last comment who would you recommend Sargan? or maybe Skelly? she has an interest in the molecular basis of primary epilepsy, or someone else - maybe you can recommend one!

Wildmoor,

I simply made a comment regarding the ladies that provide pedigree checks and why some breeders rely on them to give advice/opinions on a pedigree, given that they have no formal qualifications and can only source the information from either the internet, their limited database or from other breeders being honest when a problem occurs.

I imagine that most breeders (who are in it for the right reasons) also have an enormous curiousity for knowledge yet don't take money for it. This is not a personal attack on these ladies, i do not know either of them , i do know,  however, that giving pedigrees the 'all clear' is playing a very dangerous game.

As for the middle section of your reply - why the need for drama Wildmoor????? I look on here on a regular basis yet don't feel the need to reply, however in this instance i decided to and am accused of taking it in turn posting with other breeders!!! lol.

I am my own person Wildmoor, i read a subject that i had an opinion on and decided to post a reply, there is no drama to be had here, i haven't fallen out with anyone, neither have i made a secret of the fact that i own a few coloured longcoats (they are not bred from btw), along with a few standard coloured longcoats!! I did once (quite a few years ago now) have one of my peds checked and certainly expected a lot more substance in the report than i got, the info was very vague, a lot of it was unproven ie hearsay and some was based on personal opinion, surely if you are paying for a service you want the FACTS. I didn't breed from the bitch in question but not because of this check but based  on my own research.

Anyway,like i said,no drama to be had here Pam, just felt like voicing my opinion, this is a forum after all  !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lucy,
  I  do believe the title of GSD Breed Health Co-ordinator was given to Chris Hazel by the Kennel Club via a vote taken by the Breed Council. I think too that when speaking to anyone of these ladies, their years of experience in the breed and knowledge and information given and shared, and gathered by them is exactly what people need to know when making informed choices.   The statement you have made regarding pedigrees being checked and given the "all clear" to then find there is something else lurking is very serious and  is not viewed as a comment but as an accusation which could be very damaging to what these people are trying to do,if what you say is true and factual why not take this information that you have and phone Chris Hazel about it I am sure she would be more that willing to discuss this with you, and I am sure she will agree with you that the place to not get information from is the "Internet".


The money asked is a "donation" given to German Shepherd Welfare and is sent to Sheila Rankin, and also to GSD 2000 and is sent to Ann Masling, again if you have issues with this please contact anyone of the ladies.
    I am a bit confused now as you say you do agree with the lines above that they should not be used, yet you question the Pedigree researchers who actually researched Megan's pedigree.
Who would you recommend then to research and check pedigrees, and deem qualified to carry out this work.   Margaret

Margaret,my comment re giving pedigrees the 'all clear' is certainly not an accusation, just an observation. Look at it this way, they are relying on breeders to let them know when a problem occurs,not all breeders are honest and we all know that there were problems in some very well known lines which were kept secret for many years. So basically there could be a problem that goes unknown for years due to dishonesty in which time lots of litters have been produced and the pedigrees have been given the 'all clear' when in reality there was a growing problem that was, at the time,unknown. We have all seen the statements some breeders put on their sites claiming to have  a healthy pedigree,i just believe it is a dangerous statement as new evidence comes to light all the time.

My comment was certainly not an attack on either of these ladies, i do not have a problem with them taking donations either, i was merely questioning their ability to give advice based on the fact that they are relying on being informed when there is a problem in certain lines.

As for Megans lines,of course without a doubt they should not be used any longer and should have been cut a long time ago but i don't think we need a health co-ordinator to tell us that, there has been a problem there for many years.

Once again, this was not an attack on either of these ladies, just a concern that certain breeders like to advertise their '100% problem free pedigrees' when trying to sell pups when in reality they should be stating that this is based on what info is available  tothe researchers at the time of getting the ped checks.

My comments have been taken completely out of context as everybody wants an argument on this forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lucy,
What you have written here  "They are relying on breeders to let them know when a problem occurs,not all breeders are honest and we all know that there were problems in some very well known lines which were kept secret for many years. So basically there could be a problem that goes unknown for years due to dishonesty in which time lots of litters have been produced and the pedigrees have been given the 'all clear' when in reality there was a growing problem that was, at the time,unknown. We have all seen the statements some breeders put on their sites claiming to have  a healthy pedigree,I just believe it is a dangerous statement as new evidence comes to light all the time."
This was Indeed our reasoning for making Megan's pedigree Public, the Dishonesty and the Ability to keep things hidden, had to be changed.   "As for Megans lines,of course without a doubt they should not be used any longer and should have been cut a long time ago but I don't think we need a health co-ordinator to tell us that, there has been a problem there for many years."   We have waited a LONG time for that to be admited "thank you" you have just acknowledged something that took us many thousands of pounds in testing on Megan and a year of proof sent to the KC stating that there has and had been a problem in these lines, you also have proved my point! You knew!! as you say for years, our breeders knew and so did MANY others, BUT no-one else in the forums etc did, we were in the gsd community for years, everyone knew we were getting Megan,she was to be a foundation bitch to start breeding, and no-one that knew said a word....... When we asked our Breeders we met up with a brick wall of silence, nothing in my lines.

So yes we do need Pedigree Researchers and a health database set up with Accurate and Current information.

Margaret


 

No Drama Lucy71 I was just stating facts re breeders stating the pedigree of their dogs is clear then when confronted the statement being removed from their site.
You state your dogs are not bred yet on the 11th May 2010 you stated  "I have never sold a pup as rare , i am always completely honest about everything to do with my babies.
I do as much , if not more for my pups/dogs as those breeding to the standard , i personally believe my dogs meet the standard in every way bar colour!"

So if you dont breed are you a dealer? otherwise the comment about not selling pups as 'rare' doesn't make sense.

I cant comment on both ladies you refer to but I know one (C Hazel) would not state the lines are clear it would be more to 'as far as I am aware nothing as followed through down these lines'

 maybe you can name some of these breeders that state their lines are clear? and who researched your pedigree that you wasn't happy with.
I am also still waiting for a suggestion from you who the KC could appoint to research the pedigrees in the GSD, you said they should use a geneticists so perhaps give some options of who can take the role on.

you say you are replying to this thread as it interests you yet it was nearly off the page, there have been similar threads recently but you havent responded to those! seems strange that you post on this thread after all the gossip on FB over someone using ED scores of 2 by all her so called friends

no arguments here just questions, as no one knows who you are the username is not used elsewhere apart from dating and wallpaper sites, no access to email maybe one of the admin can check if you also post under other names and if so delete those.