LEO says why Mali's are better than GSD's - Page 5

certified KNPV dogs do have a bottom price no matter for who  , so forget about people who talk a few hundred or thousand dollar
alo the dutch police dont get them any cheaper

KNPV certified dogs are almost always Xrayed hips elbows spine before sale so that LEO reason is bullshit

most KNPV dogs are crossbreeds , mali X something , not so much pedigree malinois
 , these pups are cheap

KNPV does have the highest dropout rate of any dogsport , thats why many prefer cheap crosspups over expensive pedigreedogs
many of the dropouts make it to the forces anyway , narc or explosive dogs for example


Lot of people who train KNPV with pedigree  dogsare not in the game for selling , I have several GSD from my breeding in KNPV , none of them will be for sale after they are  certified

so if that unit will only buy KNPV certified dogs they will most likely have malicrossing  , because thats what is for sale the most

A well trained street dog has the understanding that the bad guy "can hurt him". He does not cohit a combative suspect head on at 100mph. The unfortunate accident of ivan's django ot vitosha is a prime example of what can happen. The german shepherd is still the number one police dog. Many dept's do not like the malinois because of its size. 45kg malinois ??? Please tell me where I can get a puppy that will mature to 40kg's. I want one myself. They are far & few between. Just my 2cents worth. Kurt

Per Phil..."Speed is power". 

What a load of crap statement.  You can have speed without power and vice versa.  Now you can add speed to power and then that is wicked.  But speed without power and focus is plain flashy and means nothing. 

I'm no expert in this subject but it would seem to me that you guys keep going in circles with your explanations.  One person talk about the handler aggression of the mals in different hands vs in the original breeder's hands, then goes on to say that many handlers churn out the KNPV mals like being on a conveyor belt, from pups to certification.  Of course this will happen on occasion just because initially they are familiar with their original handlers and will more obey or conform to their handling but when transferred to another handler they can become handler aggressive.  But these points of analysis can be corrected eventually.  To me this seem to be the logical path.

Mal vs GSD, well you guys have beaten this to death.  GSD are my favourite and I will be a bit more biased and side with them, so will the mal guys.  So what is the point?  The discussion and previous threads have all talked about the pros and cons, size differences, grip, hips, longitivity, so what?  Just pick the damn dog breed you like and go with it...be it a poodle or a rottie!

As for me, I like my GSD because not only are they time tested, the are just awesome and beautiful.  Who wants and ugly looking junk yard looking dog.  If your are going to enjoy watching a dog working, damn it......its just gotta look good doing so (lol).  These ugly looking junk yard dogs....the mals that is , just don't do it for me!  ....but that's just me!

As the Brits would say..."let's get on with it!"  In other words, let's move on.

 

I will have to agree on the working life time of a mal.

You cant compare hips or any other study on GSD due to the fact that Amer line, GER Show line and working lines are thrown in the mix.

many police dept I have dealt with in my area dont have alot of money and take what they can get and in many cases are not what I would consider good trainers.

  I have seen a as many  low drive good for nothing mals and dutchies in the past couple of yeears as GSD.

It is getting to the point Mals are being bred like the gsd.....so its all a crap shoot. 

Start with  a breeder who works dogs and breeds for a good working dog. 

As someone stated earlier...a good dog is a good dog no matter what breed.

 

Another issue which comes to mind I see often with malis and dutchies, for some apparent reason breeders overseas think LE here in the states want over agressiv dogs. Thus the problems with handler issues, dog not outing, so into bitework does not want to search. These are just a few issues I observe daily with a lot of thesePSD dogs thus the E Collar plus pinch collar.on at the same time,having to physically correct them by kicking, etc. I believe more often than not that is the main reason they offer them to us. As long as trainers keep buying them with these kind of problems to namea few they will keep selling them to us!

As for this entire thread the GSD folks need to calm down, I feel that all of this discontent for Malinois is due to the fact that you all are very worried that the dogs that you love so much (GSD) the good, healthy ones are quickly disappearing. This is true finding a good working GSD that is healthy through and through, no problems what so ever are gone, you all have to deal with some problem it seems, health wise that is. This is not to say that there are not problems with Malinois because that is far from true but facts show that they are typically healthier and have less genetic problems.

Also I am truly sorry but the Mal is here to stay and will only end up is the same situation as the GSD if people are not careful in their breedings. Then you will probably have another breed to pick on!

If all of you want to be pissed off about the Mal then you should call every breeder that has bred a GSD litter and ask them why in the hell did they breed their dog if it had problems. I tend to chew alot of people out in the Mal world that breed to make a profit and ignore bad health or don't health test prior to breeding. With all of the technological advances in genetics and testing everyone that breeds should have more of a moral compass and a feeling of obligation to do everything that is needed to ensure that to the best of their ability to produce a healthy litter. If all of these guidelines are followed and a health problem still exist in any dog do not repeat the breeding and do not allow the pups from the litter to be bred. I always in a first litter place the pups on a limited registration with the AkC, this is lifted after all testing is done and the pup is evaluated, and trained to any working title.   

   

As for me, I like my GSD because not only are they time tested, the are just awesome and beautiful.  Who wants and ugly looking junk yard looking dog.  If your are going to enjoy watching a dog working, damn it......its just gotta look good doing so (lol).  These ugly looking junk yard dogs....the mals that is , just don't do it for me!  ....but that's just me!  

Ugly looking Junk yard dogs!! I am sorry that you have never seen a nice looking Malinois this is a shame and until you expand your views you shouldn't talk. Get out of you box and go see some dogs somewhere else.

Bancroft....

"Pirate Lair I suggest you expand your horizons and speak to someone like Mike Suttle, better still work one of his dogs. KNPV dogs come in different shapes and sizes but 45kg Mali and Dutchies are not uncommon.Can you or someone please tell me who sells puppies from KNPV parents with a 45kg sire in this country, and general price?   Prefer Dutch Shepherd, but will consider Malinois also.
 

First off if you get a 99lb Mal he is too big. I use a KNPV stud that is around 88 pounds but I also have a smaller bitch that is around 55 pounds which is too the breed standard for a female. I end up with correct size and structure Males are around 75lbs to 80lbs and females between 50 and 60 lbs.

 

A GOOD DOG IS A GOOD DOG, IF YOU DON"T HAVE ONE GO GET ON!!!!

 

Handler aggression is not in a dogs genetic code it comes from unclear and unfair training. Let me put you on a leash and jerk the shit out of you with a pinch collar and lets see how long it takes for you to get pissed off. Aggression is so misunderstood you need to go train with someone else and aggression is not a problem it is an asset it training. Stick with your water downed GSD and stay away from the Malinois. The uneducated comments holy hell!!!

If you are referring to my comments I can only respond to what I have seen in the breed for the last 33 years 18 years dealing with them in the military and 17 years working with and training them as a civilian cop as well. The dogs that most are buying are simply shit!Overaggressive, Handler aggressive with much time being spent  As I stated before they are for the most part too much dog for most Police departments buying them. After sending handlers civilian and military to the hospital more times than I can count I have my reason for saying piss on the breed. Once again I blame it on the dogs being sent over here as well as the trainers buying them. Say what you want, the Shepherd has proven the test of time with less aggression problems than both the mali and the dutchie. JMO!

It's kind of a pointless argument because cops are NEVER wrong, it's all of the rest of us that are prospective criminals.  Remember, cops are not dog trainers, they do not train the dogs that they work with, they buy them already done, many times from another cop who was also a "handler" but is now retired and a "trainer" and making a buck.  A Malinois does not belong in the hands of an inexperienced handler, ever.  Most of what I see of the cop handlers with Malinois is they deserve to get bit.  Malinois are very reactive, more so than a Shepherd and if you start correcting them for something that you never really taught or finished teaching, you will get bit.  I went to assist in some K9 training a couple of weeks ago that was attended by @20 different departments with close to 30 dogs and a good friend of mine with a new Shepherd was getting teased by several of the Malinois handlers because he chose a Shepherd instead of a Malinois.  That day probably 2/3 if not more of the attending dogs were Malinois.  I watched as Shepherd after Shepherd had to be lifted into the bed of a small pickup truck for searches because they couldn't (or wouldn't) jump in.  It got even worse as I watched several have to be assisted into the back seat of a 4 door Blazer and basically miss the finds because they couldn't negotiate the tight quarters of a small SUV.  Personally I'd much rather have a medium (the size a working German Shepherd should be anyway) sized K9 partner with a heart that won't quit instead of a big overweight lazy slug that I have to do most of the work for.

 

There's my .10, now I'll sit down and let the GSD mud come flying.

A point of view from a guy new to the breed (Mali). I think you are getting into an argument without the proper contextualization (and I'll explain why further down) three days ago I attended to a multy - agency k9 squad training day, with different drills and situations, many variables and exercises. This is what I could observe, being that I was a mere spectator, and swear to god I'm being as objective as one could be: 1. Probably 25 to 30 shepherds and three malis 2. All the malis had 2 e-collars (one at the neck and one at the waist) plus prong collar. 3. Both breeds made mistakes but was infinitely more painful see the malis get juiced constantly by trainers due to lack of obedience when outing and being recalled. 4. Although is eye candy the alertness and drive of the malis, and the extreme agility and speed of their attacks I have to say they all avoided water (one of the courses had a lake to cross) seemed as a matter of fact like they hated it. And by no means I'm saying all of them are like that, I'm referring only to what I saw, remember. 5. After talking to some of the Mali's handlers I noted something curious; they all had titanium implants. What I was told was that their k-9s broke easier, not to mention to be smaller than the gsd's.( that's what they told me, don't crucify me just yet.) 6. One of the scenarios resembled a corrections officer who was shot and killed along with his dog when in pursuit of an inmate into the woods, exercise was basically tracking. None of the malis participated. 7. No accidents till around 3:00 pm, Mali acquired target in suit, apprehended good, was ordered to out, and did so, as the group of police men running the drill approached the van to put the suspect in custody, Mali attacks one of the fellow officers walking by.( he was juiced pretty good though) matter fact the officer was juiced to, one could say since he was shocked while biting the officer. Jejeje Now, that's what i could observe, by no means this signify all malis are bad and all gsds are good, needless to say I saw some knuckle headed shepherds as well. Just make the observation to clarify that from a neutral stand point that was the result of my observation day. In the other hand ( and this is what I think, and now I'm being subjective) and returning to my point about the lack of conceptualization, its by all known through time that gsds are versatile dogs, not thought to Excel in just ONE task but to be very successful at MANY (if not all of them) e.g. S&R, psd, sports, herding, ppd, blind guide, therapy, military, all kinds of detections, just to name a few... My thing with the malis is, that as jumpy as they are, and as alert, and highly driven and all of the nice features the breed has, I just don't TRUST them.( crucifie me now) you see, cause the thing is the human psyque needs to trust to accept, there is no way in hell, I would leave my baby girl in the house (even with me in it) with a loose Mali. And that is I IMHO the Mali is never gonna come even near the gsd. Because is vastly proven gsds are reliable dogs. So with all due respect there should not be direct comparison between malis and gsds, the post should sound more like for instance: " best police takedowns, malis or gsds? Note that I'm referring only to a very specific part of police work, being that it entails a wide arrange of activities, in which again, would not be fair (with the Mali) to do a direct comparison. Last but not least to the person with the Cadillac and the ferrary analogy. I think this is not appropriate, let me share one of my own: COMPARING A GSD WITH A MALI WOULD BE LIKE COMPARING A PORSCHE CAYENNE GTS with a 1300cc SUZUKI HAYABUSA. you decide which one is what. MY 2 CENTS.. LET IT RAIN!!!!!