EPILEPSY - Page 4

Yes , if you go way back on the UK bred dogs you'll find the known names. I'm sure it's not just in the Showlines , German or otherwise , it's just sad and scary that we just don't know !

There was a few animals from the Secretainerie kennels born around the time of 1946 carrying the line from Ingosohn of Errol. You also have to research the bloodlines from Arno an sister Abbess of Sara on the female and male lines who come from these lines. The progeny from both of these dogs can be found on this Database that identify the females an sires of their progeny.

Arno and Abbess were in an era before Avon Prince was born.

Mackenzie

You've all been doing great on this thred while I have been unable to access the site, but I could add 2 points not mentioned :

1. Actually the UK Kennel Club has itself done sweet FA about 'ideopathic' epilepsy in our breed; all the significant work has been done by breeders, and as it is true there is no test for epilepsy / the condition can and does hide away for generations and then reappear due to breeding-on with affected dogs' lines, it is hard to fight - except by diligent avoidance of those lines. Unfortunately although close inbreeding makes that far worse, it has been spread around so far in the GSD ancestry (mainly in 'Alsatian' stock as Sunny notes, but not exclusively) that cases occur whether there has been extreme inbreeding or not. Of course it must have come from Germany originally - all British dogs originate from German dogs at root. But over the decades we have found the SV and German breeders less than forthcoming on the issue.

2. None of you have mentioned the culprits Chris H. mostly looks for initially, as that presence is so frequently found and implicated, which are the Hendrawens and Eveley kennels, and notably the Eveley 'E' litter.

   Hendrawen's Charade of Charavigne sired a litter on Marydown Little Venus of Eveley. (Linebred on Sparky Aronbel and Avon Prince). 3 Champions = Efne (died 1972), an epileptic; Coolrees Enchantment of E, who died in '78, and Eclipse of E. a dog who may or may not have fitted himself but who certainly sired epileptics. He also sired 5 Champions.

   Hendrawen's Quadrille of Eveley 1964 - 1968. He was by Vondauns Quebec, x Vanity of Eveley. Also linebred on Avon Prince. Quadrille sired 215 progeny in his short life, including 4 Champions. H. Charade was one of his sons.

 

Not minimising the problem;  you can see why - at the time - many breeders gave few opportunities to related dogs, some of which would have involved perfectly good dogs which did not fit. Unfortunately quite a lot of matings still took place involving those which did, or carried; and, later on, despite reminders, there have been many breedings which brought those dogs into play again.

Rossfort Prmonition is another carrier. The breeding goes back through Arno of Saba and his sister Abbess. His breeding is a horror story of epileptic inbreeding. Amulree kennel also has many epileptic lines. Amulree breeding is behind the GermanSieger Hagadahls Figo and his son Ballack.

The list goes on to way back to before WW 2. All is found on this Database.

Mackenzie

Yes - and yet look at the many good dogs that the Amulree kennel has produced, and is still producing. Just shows this is a problem which does not have a simple solution, other than that it is in a majority of cases being produced by 'breeders' who don't take cogniscense of what is behind their stock, even though the more recent traces of those lines are, I believe we have shown, reasonably easy to check.

It is all very well researching back to find the culprit carriers but I think that having discovered them the breeders have not effectually used the information for the future when selecting breeding material. It will surprise many readers that so many successful breeders for the show ring have been very much aware that much of their bloodlines are loaded with carriers but continued to breed on still using them. The chase for the Red Rosette is the be all and end all regardless of the damage it causes.

Happy Christmas everyone

Mackenzie

What is the actual incidence of expressed trait in the population of dogs from these known breeders? At least compared to the incidence of other inheritance traits...

Unfortunately the questions that Charlie asks are answerable with any accuracy. The reasons are that first this post is solely about Epilepsy and traits should be discussed on a different post.

The problem surrounding all posts where research is needed is one of secrecy, misinformation and fake pedigrees. In the case of epilepsy in the UK the beginnings go back long before the often quoted Avon Prince. In fact research goes back the 1940’s when Ingosohn of Erol surfaced. This evidence confirms that when researching pedigrees of 3,4 and five generations are sometimes insufficient and for research purposes sometimes the origins in the breeding families goes back even further. All of this takes experience of the bloodlines, time and patience. The research must also subject to scrutiny of the known siblings and their progeny. Also, when researching the researcher should listen to what other people are saying and then check the substance and accuracy of that information. Not all of it will be true!


Mackenzie

Agreed that it would be a demanding task. But it (quantification and identification), would go a long way towards addressing the issues. It's easier to hit a target you can see and identify. Also, there is research on other breeds that point to incidence among Finnish Spitz ( https://avmajournals.avma.org/view/journals/javma/243/7/javma.243.7.1001.xml), so it may be feasible.

The research you seek to find when multiplied by the parents and their litter mates and so on. To give you some idea of the problem Avon Prince had according to this database 563 siblings in 3 generations assuming that all of the pedigrees are true and accurate.

Happy Christmas Charlie