Puppy factory? - Page 4

Vk4gsd- that made me giggle.  But history is written by the victor!

well i was only half trying to be funny, seriously look into it, the capt'n was apparently not a successful breeder in his time and he never personally trained a dog.

i bet the guy never even seen combat even tho he is almost always referred to as captain, his rich family would have made sure he got a good safe job behind the lines to get fat and write dog poems. (haven't verified his military service either way TBH).

basically all he did was draw the blue-prints of how to be another full of shit dog pimp who never walked the walk. his legacy lives thru in the likes of the martin brothers and anyone else that sells the breed (any breed) out for personal profit.

imagine how big he would be today if he was born in the age of the internet and mass marketing his web-site would be the best, you would have to install a new graphics card designed by NASA and wear 3D glasses to view it.

 there would be statues of him in every town standing next to a dog he never bred or trained.  he would turn up at all the big trials and be handed a leash to a super dog somebody else bred and trained and bumble his way thru a trial to much accolades. 

german children would forced to recite his name before every meal. and the words HOT would bring the penalty of death to those that uttered them in his presence.

put that in yr book jim.

Well, not to go swimming in Egypt an' all that (I have seen the Nile !),
but I would also like to know what Jim Engle means by "consistent"
[unsuitable] temperament ?   Ain't nothing very consistent about the
GSD temperament, over the decades, whether in Showlines or any
other sector of the breed.

E.G. :   people often refer to AMERICAN s/l dogs as being 'mainly'
 windy.  One reason so many people import from Germany appears
to be because they get better nerves with imported s/l, than with
home-bred.  [ Leaving aside other quarrels with what the ASL has
been / become.]

We went through a similar phrase with cowardly dogs in the UK,
mainly - but not exclusively - with dogs bred for 'Alsatian' type, for
generations:  these no longer bore much resemblance to their German
's/l' ancestry, in temperament or many other respects.

On this board alone, there are enough debates about suitable/correct
temperaments among the W/L people, with arguing about the overall
state of drives and grips, to the pedigrees of certain sires, to whether the
Czech etc dogs are better than the West German dogs, that would fill a book
the ​length of the one Mr Engels has in production.  Never mind about defending
(SOME, at least) Showline dogs as having temperaments and sport abilities
EQUAL to the working lines ...

I have been reading Jim Engels book as he has made  bits available, and I do
not doubt that he is putting much hard work into completing it.  Nor do I doubt
his (working) 'credentials' for writing it.  But the intermittent harking back to that tired
old stuff about how inferior s/l dogs all around the planet are, as compared to w/l
simply because some, SV & other, breeders have taken the trouble to try to maintain
the structure and appearance of the breed is getting really OLD.  I suggest it is time
he declares his qualifications for discussing much to do with the s/l side of the breed
and the SV influence on puppy production, in Germany and elsewhere, because he is
in danger of delaying his book still further by becoming too bogged down in an area
of the GSD that he has strong feelings about but not, apparently, much working useful
knowledge of.  He shares, with others who constantly bang on about the 'reductions' in
the value of IPO, the influence of particular breeders now decades gone, etc, the same
obsessive opinions. That actually have not so much concrete evidence to prove the
accusations, but as completely ignore the effect on the breed of other factors - like indiscriminate
breeding for profit, and/or to produce saleable 'pet'  couch potato "GSDs", which have always
happened, continue to happen today, and unfortunately will no doubt continue to happen while
the human race maintains itself on this planet.

Linda Swift   (there ya go, Mr E;  not that it'll mean anything to you !).

Mr Engel, I think in terms of fairness, it would probably be better to raise this topic on a forum that really cares about retaining all the breed characteristics. There was a time when there WERE many topics about the useful integration of the GS into the working world and the maintenance of these qualities. But in reality, the folks that have sufficient knowledge in these areas have all but left the PDB, or have relegated themselves to occaisionally commenting on a thread, but basically leaving day to day posting to pet people, pet issues, and occaisionally show issues. I find it fascinating that the same six people who always complained about SL being bashed and SL people leaving the forum, have achieved the opposite effect in that these six or seven people who post on everything and everybody pretty much have the board to themselves. I'm not saying this to denigrate anyone, just as an unintended consequence of this forum that really is more about the breed and pet issues than substantial discourse about temperament,breeding, or working.  I see that people like Winnie Strickland and James Moses or Fred Lanting have written comprehensive books about ALL aspects of the breed with little useful working knowledge in areas outside of show and obedience( which nothing is wrong with but are fields the Labs, Goldens are just as suited for), and nobody brings up their bona fides......so I would implore you to find another arena for these type discussions and allow this board to continue to provide a venue for the pet and feel good issues and occaisionally health issue. Not saying these issues are bad Mr Engel, but this board really doesn't have the daily posters that are interested in the application of much more than pet/obedience/conformation issues.....the discussions about working and breeding for working is pretty much dead on this forum. 

Gustav,

You are probably correct.

But someone has to tilt at the windmills.

There is really nothing in English that gives a comprehensive
overview of GSD history, although Garrett is very interesting
and useful:
http://www.angelplace.net/doc/GarrettBook.pdf

What alternate venue would you suggest?

Hey, the excerpts I have read from your book are very much the same picture I have seen over decades. I don't have an answer, in terms of this board, that's why I infrequently post anymore. I hope you get your book out soon, because the information in the book from what I have seen closely correlates with what you predominately have seen has taken place with breed from yesterday to today. It won't resonate with most people here, but few people here have your depth of experience with the breed or the working application of the breed and what has been lost and continues to be lost. I don't have an answer Jim, I admire what you are doing, ( have often been asked to write a book on breed myself), but frankly, I'm like many on this board in that the topics and discourse on this board frankly bores me. Hey, but my time has passed by, and there are young and new people who will have their life filled with the breed. I have gone on record as saying that in 25 years less than 10% of the breed will be able to do creditable work in areas that the dog acquired its legacy in.....I still feel that way....even more so as the new experts come into place....Take care and good luck on the project....some of us thank you for your commitment to preserving the legacy!

i started following this recent thread:  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=762459-improving-the-breed&pagen=4#762927
but quickly became disappointed when the talk centered around length of coat.  i even made comment about nerve strength & working ability,
but to no avail :(  if people really believe that breeding for a certain type of coat is paramount in the gsd, then our worst fears have been realised.
breeding appearance to win shows & training to pass trials has been the downfall of our breed.  i know there are folks out there who still breed
for the true working dog, but they are in the minority.  my only hope is that one day we will come full circle and appreciate the gsd for what he
is meant to be.
pjp

Geez, I guess the few of us pet people ought to be thanking our lucky stars that we still get blessed every now and than by the infinit wisdom and insight that these few lingering experts have to offer.
My God, I guess there would be no worthy German Shepherds left but for the few self annointed guardians of the breed.
How wonderful of Mr Engel to shed some light on the downfall of the breed for us all,
Oh,that's right,it's once again, JUST the showlines,be it German or American....he too knows better than the SV.......WhatEverrr....
I will continue on,the way I have been....

Thank you Mr. E, Gustav, hired dog, et al.  

I am passionate about the WORKING gsd and this site is truly way off track. I come back over the years just to see what is going on but some of the great posters are nowhere to be found.  This has turned into g----sh------.com.  Bah.