OFA Opinions - Page 4

Congrats! Those look good! I figured elbows look normal also. Get on a bike and get that AD rolling so Bravo can get his "pretty" rating!

Happy for ya!

Martina

Thanks Martina, yeah i plan on getting the AD at some point soon.  Thanks also for the comments Dawulf,jem38, and Wildwolf.

Ok got results back today.   OFA "good" for hips!  

Now for opinions on the elbows if there are any here that can read them cause i have no clue how to look at them.  Do you think they are overflexed? 

They're way beyond the 45 degree angle suggested by OFA.
For comparison, here are his littermate's,(I blocked out the owner's last name, not the dog's name) taken at proper degree of flexion. See how much clearer/easier to read it is?

Yeah, looks like i should get them re-done Jen.  Usually people have the opposite problem where hips are badly positioned and elbows are perfectly positioned.  Would OFA "regrade" them or would they say sorry 1st opinion is only opinion.

Sounds like the elbows didn't pass......

I do not know how to read elbows, but I did a prelim on one of my girls before she was two and the elbows got a Grade 1
and then I redid them at about age 3 yrs, and they still got a grade 1, they still look ok to me...
I have two of her offspring, a boy and girl both with normal elbows, one excellent hips the other with good hips.

Here are her Grade 1 elbows,(first one right, next picture left), I still don't know what I'm looking at, but hips are easier to guess for me:





 

http://www.offa.org/pdf/elbowarticle.pdf

It is important that the elbow be in extreme flexation per the above. Techs are taught to flex the elbows as much as they can when xraying for elbow incongruities for the reasons listed there. The article also says how to re-submit  elbow xrays for another evaluation..

Mirasmom, maybe you can compare your xrays with those posted in the OFA link I listed above. As you know, when OFA reads xrays they put them on a lighted viewer that gives them a more complete look at the joints than we can get from looking at a copy on a computer screen. It's complicated and most vets can't even identify most subtle elbow changes much beyond joint mice and obvious UAP.   Did your reports say anything other than the grade?

OFA's desired view for elbows is really a very poor view for anything diagnostic, anyway. That's why I think flexed but not totally crushed is the easiest, clearest way to read the mechanics of the joint without pieces parts of other parts interfering and making people wonder what they're seeing. It'll (extreme flexed)  show UAP and that's about it. It's pretty subjective beyond that, as the boards opinions will often vary widely which can happen with hips but nearly as much. I find it ironic that OFA is so sure of what they think they see in elbows, but it can be disproved in arthroscopy; I don't know if anyone's aware of this, but it's happened where someone received a grade 1 on elbows, had arthroscopy done, found NOTHING! and OFA was forced to change the grade to normal. Of course, most people don't have the resources to do that and don't want to put the dog through surgery, but this woman had a point to make and lo and behold, she was right. It's explained in detail in the article I posted. It's long, but worth the read for any breeder or owner who xrays.

Paula, the tiniest bit of miniscule, almost impossible to see, shadowing will cause a grade 1 rating. Why? Because they're GUESSING that it's a degenerative change BASED ON ANOTHER PROBLEM THEY JUST CAN'T SEE. Sound a loopy for a test that is supposed to make or break a dog's breeding career? It does to me. They think, well, I can't tell what this could be...looks fine, but let's be safe and say it's arthritis from a primary lesion we can't see and fail the dog. That way, we've erred on the side of eliminating another sound dog for breeding in stead of accidentally passing one who might have something, but might not.   The problem is, what if it's nothing? A shadow? A shadow from an angle not 100% perfect?  What if it's not secondary to any other problem? Rather than recommend another film, a CT scan, etc., something that would show a more clear view, they label the dog dysplastic and lump them in with serious conditions! The good OFA vets know this and are telling their clients to simply not send in elbows when they know the dog is sound, they see no evidence of a problem, but they know the tiniest hint of a shadow is going to make OFA say DJD. I was quite surprised when I heard that, and until I heart it from 2 people about the same vet, I didn't believe it at all at first. This guy used to read for OFA and is the "go to" guy around the midwest for xrays. He said it depends on the day whether they'll catch it or not and decide to grade it down, but that they're grading them very strictly lately, so any question is automatically labeled dysplastic. Now, I think when really competent vets are telling clients not to send their films into OFA because they will be graded unfairly, THAT'S a BIG PROBLEM! OFA is the only resource we have in this country for EASY submission (yes, we have SV). Why not try to reason with OFA? Is it that impossible that another vet/expert would share the concern? Surely, not sending them in at all can't be the best for what we're trying to achieve, but with what I've seen lately, I do understand his philosophy. He's not the only one; I know two big name vets in the midwest who say the same thing to clients when an elbow or both are "iffy." They say it's not worth ruining the dog's name over "clinically insignificant indication of possible bone change. "

On your film, Paula, even at the lesser angle, I do see what they're calling grade 1. Compare it to the ones I posted and I think you'll see the difference. I still wouldn't worry about it from a soundness perspective, and from the fact that you bred her, I see you didn't worry about it at all! Your results from her offspring are not really that surprising, however many gasps and groans you probably garned from breeding an OFA dysplastic dog.  I know I've posted this article before, but this is a big eye-opener on grade 1 elbows and how OFA scores and the reasoning behind it. http://www.ridgebackregister.com/images/RR_11Sp_Elbow_Debate_singles.pdf  This woman is a biologist and wrote this after research prompted her to look into her Ridgeback's "Grade 1 DJD" rating in only one elbow. Now,  I hope people don't take the info and go running wildly with it, trying to excuse FCP and UAP and all kinds of other stuff that may be hereditary!  This article is interesting in what the author's findings are in her own program and also her colleagues who have done similar with their grade 1 dogs. It's food for thought and a lot of good information, not a free pass to breed cripples!

 

From the OFA website:

Elbow Dysplasia Types

The Three Faces of Elbow Dysplasia

Elbow dysplasia is a general term used to identify an inherited polygenic disease in the elbow of dogs. Three specific etiologies make up this disease and they can occur independently or in conjunction with one another. These etiologies include:

1. Pathology involving the medial coronoid of the ulna (FCP)
2. Osteochondritis of the medial humeral condyle in the elbow joint (OCD)
3. Ununited anconeal process (UAP)

Studies have shown the inherited polygenic traits causing these etiologies are independent of one another. Clinical signs involve lameness which may remain subtle for long periods of time. No one can predict at what age lameness will occur in a dog due to a large number of genetic and environmental factors such as degree of severity of changes, rate of weight gain, amount of exercise, etc. Subtle changes in gait may be characterized by excessive inward deviation of the paw which raises the outside of the paw so that it receives less weight and distributes more mechanical weight on the outside (lateral) aspect of the elbow joint away from the lesions located on the inside of the joint. Range of motion in the elbow is also decreased.