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by susie on 07 August 2012 - 18:08
Kitkat:
Believe me or not - I´m able to stack the dog from your first pic like a VA-dog and I´m able to stack the same dog showing a "roached back" without problems ( if you are interested, "ugly" is also possible...)
A picture doesn´t show much, you need to see the dog while moving, nothing else.
As long as the OP is looking for a companion, the female he choosed is no bad choice at all ( as long as she is healthy! ).
Good pedigree, good expression, good color, good structure.
I don´t like the way people talk about dogs they never saw.
Believe me or not - I´m able to stack the dog from your first pic like a VA-dog and I´m able to stack the same dog showing a "roached back" without problems ( if you are interested, "ugly" is also possible...)
A picture doesn´t show much, you need to see the dog while moving, nothing else.
As long as the OP is looking for a companion, the female he choosed is no bad choice at all ( as long as she is healthy! ).
Good pedigree, good expression, good color, good structure.
I don´t like the way people talk about dogs they never saw.
by marjorie on 07 August 2012 - 19:08
He asked for our opinion on the picture he linked to, so how else could we possibly provide feedback, as he requested??? We gave feedback judged upon the photo he presented us with.. LOL! He also stated he was looking for a bitch to start a breeding program. No one here went to the photo gallery and just randomly chose a dog to discuss and critique..gif)
Last but certainly not least, if someone is trying to sell a dog, would they put up a BAD photo on the net, or would they put their best foot forward and stack the dog in the best possible light ????
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry (a health registry for registered German Shepherds)
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate
Last but certainly not least, if someone is trying to sell a dog, would they put up a BAD photo on the net, or would they put their best foot forward and stack the dog in the best possible light ????
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry (a health registry for registered German Shepherds)
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate
by susie on 07 August 2012 - 19:08
Last but certainly not least, if someone is trying to sell a dog, would they put up a BAD photo on the net, or would they put their best foot forward and stack the dog in the best possible light ????
Do you really never take a look at the advertisements ???
You didn´t even ask the OP for what kind of dog out of what reason he was looking for
There ARE people on the world who are NOT interested in your anticipation of a German Shepherd dog.
what about some tolerance...???
Do you really never take a look at the advertisements ???
You didn´t even ask the OP for what kind of dog out of what reason he was looking for
There ARE people on the world who are NOT interested in your anticipation of a German Shepherd dog.
what about some tolerance...???
by Hundmutter on 07 August 2012 - 20:08
1 I don't remember the OP saying anything about wanting to breed with her dog ... yet.
2 The grass in her pedigree photo is too long to see whether she has inherited her mothers poor feet or not;
only one (nearside rear) can be assessed 'properly'- and that looks ok to me - [insofar as anyone can ever really offer a proper critique
of a dog from one photo of it - as Susie implies, people really ought to hold off on some of their comments
if they have not actually seen the real dog]. If her potential for passing on her mother's feet is there, obviously that's not good; but as with many other things, careful choice of the male to be used could
involve correcting for this.
3 A lot of contributors regularly point out that you can cherry-pick off the internet to find theories that
support your position; but I really think that someone in your role as keeper of a health registry
ought to be able to lay hands on the papers you talk about, Marjorie, if they are so convincing and incontravertible ?
4 Not sure I buy the stuff about roach backs being too 'new' to have been fully investigated - I've heard
accusations of "banana" and "hyena" levelled at German/International type GSDs since AT LEAST 1980 !
2 The grass in her pedigree photo is too long to see whether she has inherited her mothers poor feet or not;
only one (nearside rear) can be assessed 'properly'- and that looks ok to me - [insofar as anyone can ever really offer a proper critique
of a dog from one photo of it - as Susie implies, people really ought to hold off on some of their comments
if they have not actually seen the real dog]. If her potential for passing on her mother's feet is there, obviously that's not good; but as with many other things, careful choice of the male to be used could
involve correcting for this.
3 A lot of contributors regularly point out that you can cherry-pick off the internet to find theories that
support your position; but I really think that someone in your role as keeper of a health registry
ought to be able to lay hands on the papers you talk about, Marjorie, if they are so convincing and incontravertible ?
4 Not sure I buy the stuff about roach backs being too 'new' to have been fully investigated - I've heard
accusations of "banana" and "hyena" levelled at German/International type GSDs since AT LEAST 1980 !
by kitkat3478 on 07 August 2012 - 20:08
Man, shaz asked for opinions on the pedigree, what does that mean to some of you? Yes, it is great because dogs are titled in there? To me, when researching a pedigree, that means looking at the dogs, behind the dog in question? No one said shaz Was going to breed, opinions were given on the dogs pedigree, which also to me implies thoughts of the dog itself. Some expressed strenghths and weaknesses, as to THEIR opinions, OF THE PEDIGREE and what their thoughts of that was. That is what was asked for. If some of you like the roach back, there is nothing stopping you from expressing YOUR OWN THOUGHTS on that. Some of us just clearly THINK (know actually), we don't like the golden arches on our dogs, that's all. I didn't think the question was only for those supporting the roach back dog (and there are clearly a few in the pedigree that certainly qualify as ROACH backs)
by marjorie on 07 August 2012 - 21:08
I misunderstood- i thought she wanted to learn and become a breeder! I thought that was why she wanted to import a dog @@ My mistake!!!
Hell, no, if she isnt going to breed, then, no, it doesnt matter!
--- > but I really think that someone in your role as keeper of a health registry
ought to be able to lay hands on the papers you talk about, Marjorie, if they are so convincing and incontravertible
I had it on my old computer, but it crashed and I had no back-up :( Some lessons are learned the hard way...
I should have saved the link, along with everything else I lost, on disk :(
--- > I've heard
accusations of "banana" and "hyena" levelled at German/International type GSDs since AT LEAST 1980 !
Much more prevalent these days- no comparison..
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry (a health registry for registered German Shepherds)
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate
Hell, no, if she isnt going to breed, then, no, it doesnt matter!
--- > but I really think that someone in your role as keeper of a health registry
ought to be able to lay hands on the papers you talk about, Marjorie, if they are so convincing and incontravertible
I had it on my old computer, but it crashed and I had no back-up :( Some lessons are learned the hard way...
I should have saved the link, along with everything else I lost, on disk :(
--- > I've heard
accusations of "banana" and "hyena" levelled at German/International type GSDs since AT LEAST 1980 !
Much more prevalent these days- no comparison..
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry (a health registry for registered German Shepherds)
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate
by marjorie on 07 August 2012 - 21:08
Google it, Hundmutter! I did a few minutes ago and immediately came up with the subject matter
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/117863.html
article by John Walker
This is not the article I was talking about, but as you can see, vets are and have been weighing in on this.
'It is reported in the July -August 1997 edition of the canine journal WUFF that the SV, now under Herr Peter Mebler has changed the 1993 version of the breed standard so that a straight back is now specified!
This follows hard on the heels of what must be one of the most scathing attacks ever by an SV insider. In the previous edition when Dr Helmut Raiser described the currently fashionable GSD conformation as being
"A dog at the front and a frog at the back".
The new wording is as follows with the relevant change highlighted in bold type:
Die Oberlinie verlauft vom Halsansatz uber den homen langen Widerrest unduber den GERADEN RUCKEN bis zur leicht abfallendenKruppe ohne sichtbare Unterbrechung. Der Rucken ist maBig lang, fest,kraftig und gut bemuskelt. (German reference to straight back)
The important change from the 1993 version is that the Standard now demands a straight back rather than a gently sloping back.
Under the new heading of the Pathological Geometry the article puts forward the veterinary viewpoint that the currently fashionable conformation represents an unnatural physiological structure around the region of the hip joints, and in the lumbar-sacral region of the spine around the loin and croup. From this comes exostosis (bony outgrowths) which narrow the spinal canal causing damage to the spinal canal and the nerve within which is chronic and can be correspondingly painful to the animal.
The article then goes on to say that the change in the Standard shows, this time, what farsighted functionaries at the highest level in the SV have again been saying.
A Little of the recent History
Some prominent members of the German veterinary profession have been campaigning for some time to return to a straight backline following increasing evidence that the currently fashionable convex hinged backline is responsible , in whole or in part, for the many skeletal ills which currently impact upon breed health, movement , and fitness for work.
Professor Wegner, geneticist of the Hanover Veterinary School has led a campaign over many years to return to a more traditional and more bio-mechanically optimised shape. In various articles and in his book, Kleine Kynologie, he has made repeated attacks on the SV for allowing the breed to stray from the Physical and mental prowess which made the GSD the World's leading utility dog.
In Germany, 1996 was designated the year of the dog by the BTK (Bundestierarztekammer- The German equivalent of the British Veterinary Association) and the GSD figured prominently amongst the breeds said to be causing widespread concern over the general health status. The BTK papers included contributions from a number of leading German Veterinary professionals up to Professor level, including the BTK President Professor Gunter Pschorn.
Under the sub heading of diseases which two breeds have been susceptible to for decades, the GSD, was itemised as follows:
HD (Huftgelenksdysplasie)
Myasthenia gravis ( Erkrankung an Neerven/Muskeln)
Bandscheibenvorfall (Schaferhundelahme)
Harnsteinbildung
Magendrehung.
Item one is self explanatory- it is hip dysplasia. Item two ie degenerative wasting of nerve and muscle tissue. Item three is prolapse of the vertebrae, which is one logical outcome from the current unnatural spine angulation resulting in (literally) "SHEPHERD DOG LAMENESS" . The most likely translation for item four seems to be urinary lculas/retention. Item five is Gastric Torsion
John R Walker.
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/117863.html
article by John Walker
This is not the article I was talking about, but as you can see, vets are and have been weighing in on this.
'It is reported in the July -August 1997 edition of the canine journal WUFF that the SV, now under Herr Peter Mebler has changed the 1993 version of the breed standard so that a straight back is now specified!
This follows hard on the heels of what must be one of the most scathing attacks ever by an SV insider. In the previous edition when Dr Helmut Raiser described the currently fashionable GSD conformation as being
"A dog at the front and a frog at the back".
The new wording is as follows with the relevant change highlighted in bold type:
Die Oberlinie verlauft vom Halsansatz uber den homen langen Widerrest unduber den GERADEN RUCKEN bis zur leicht abfallendenKruppe ohne sichtbare Unterbrechung. Der Rucken ist maBig lang, fest,kraftig und gut bemuskelt. (German reference to straight back)
The important change from the 1993 version is that the Standard now demands a straight back rather than a gently sloping back.
Under the new heading of the Pathological Geometry the article puts forward the veterinary viewpoint that the currently fashionable conformation represents an unnatural physiological structure around the region of the hip joints, and in the lumbar-sacral region of the spine around the loin and croup. From this comes exostosis (bony outgrowths) which narrow the spinal canal causing damage to the spinal canal and the nerve within which is chronic and can be correspondingly painful to the animal.
The article then goes on to say that the change in the Standard shows, this time, what farsighted functionaries at the highest level in the SV have again been saying.
A Little of the recent History
Some prominent members of the German veterinary profession have been campaigning for some time to return to a straight backline following increasing evidence that the currently fashionable convex hinged backline is responsible , in whole or in part, for the many skeletal ills which currently impact upon breed health, movement , and fitness for work.
Professor Wegner, geneticist of the Hanover Veterinary School has led a campaign over many years to return to a more traditional and more bio-mechanically optimised shape. In various articles and in his book, Kleine Kynologie, he has made repeated attacks on the SV for allowing the breed to stray from the Physical and mental prowess which made the GSD the World's leading utility dog.
In Germany, 1996 was designated the year of the dog by the BTK (Bundestierarztekammer- The German equivalent of the British Veterinary Association) and the GSD figured prominently amongst the breeds said to be causing widespread concern over the general health status. The BTK papers included contributions from a number of leading German Veterinary professionals up to Professor level, including the BTK President Professor Gunter Pschorn.
Under the sub heading of diseases which two breeds have been susceptible to for decades, the GSD, was itemised as follows:
HD (Huftgelenksdysplasie)
Myasthenia gravis ( Erkrankung an Neerven/Muskeln)
Bandscheibenvorfall (Schaferhundelahme)
Harnsteinbildung
Magendrehung.
Item one is self explanatory- it is hip dysplasia. Item two ie degenerative wasting of nerve and muscle tissue. Item three is prolapse of the vertebrae, which is one logical outcome from the current unnatural spine angulation resulting in (literally) "SHEPHERD DOG LAMENESS" . The most likely translation for item four seems to be urinary lculas/retention. Item five is Gastric Torsion
John R Walker.
by live4schutzhund on 07 August 2012 - 22:08
I like the pup. Eyes could be darker.
Sire side - awesome
Dam side - Aggressive line breeding. She produced amazing with Geck, thats about it.
Bred back to geck or one of his sons is the only positive, otherwise the weak motherline is too much of a gamble.
Sire side - awesome
Dam side - Aggressive line breeding. She produced amazing with Geck, thats about it.
Bred back to geck or one of his sons is the only positive, otherwise the weak motherline is too much of a gamble.
by kitkat3478 on 07 August 2012 - 22:08
Excellent info Marjorie
by marjorie on 07 August 2012 - 23:08
There were many articles I had kept on my computer before it crashed. I did take it in to see what they could save, but not much :( There were actual veterinary studies...
more:
Helmut Raiser, the new breed warden for Germany's S.V, seems to have come to the same conclusion as us. He says that after 40 years of x-raying hips their dogs are more unhealthy than ever because they have been looking at the wrong thing. What has been causing the problem is the bent spine that has caused the spinal chord to narrow and pinch nerves. (Spondylosis and Cauda Equina.) The friction against the nerve sheaths causes pain which Helmut believes is responsible for the frantic 'drive' that has been selected for, and also the reason why many GSDs are reluctant to sit (he says it's like sitting on nails). As the nerve sheaths are worn away the back leg muscles waste away until the nerves stop functioning completely and the dog becomes paralyzed.
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