Hock walker? - Page 4

Sitasmom- no offense but your description of angulation and movement totally contradicts the picture of that dog .I love showlines,BUT not looking like that. Anyone that breeds showline dogs and thinks that is acceptable is really, really hurting the breed . There is no logical reason to breed them dogs like that. If I bought a showline dog and that is how it developed, I'd be one pissed off person.

In reference to the high stepping gait:-

Louis Donald says this: The degree of this energy sapping, non-enduring, high stepping fore action is determined directly by the hind quarter, specifically its degree of thrust.

Certainly this dog looks to have an overly long femur. The degree of angulation and it's relationship to the tibia, forehand and neck carriage cannot be told accurately in movement, but the movement itself is revealing some flaws in conformation. This is not to say that this is unusual or unique to this particular dog, it is very common in some SL.

To quote Louis Donald again: As a general rule when a dog is gaiting for optimum efficiency the front feet should not rise above the ground any higher than the height of the carpus.

I believe this is what is meant by ground covering gait, that which is done with minimal effort and optimal efficiency.

"The harder a dog pulls on the lead the more of a ground eating stride it has"
That statement makes no sense to me at all. It is an entirely 'false' picture then, relying on the handler and the lead to 'enhance' and I use the term very loosely, the dog's performance.  All the more reason to introduce off lead or loose lead gaiting only to evaluate dogs, and get a genuine picture of the dogs movement without external influence.

I do believe SL can work, those that are not overly exaggerated, I have seen some beauties, but if we are not careful, there will be few of those left. Too often I hear of every excuse possible to defend and accept exaggeration, I rarely hear a SL 'diehard' admit to any exaggeration in any areas in the breed. All the time that attitude prevails we creep steadily toward more exaggeration and SL will continue along that path until there is no way back. I don't want to see that happen. The breed standard just keeps on being changed to accommodate the dogs being bred rather than the dogs being bred to meet the standard. Interpretation of the standard is also incredibly loose. Not everyone who comments like this hates showlines, quite the reverse they used to love SL, but can't bear to see where they are going now. Well, that's where I am at.

Abbey Normal....you are right on the money.......Sitasmom....that particular dog you show demonstrates some work.....what about the many dogs of this type I see that just don't have it....WHAT do I tell them.....a lie?????????

Out of all the show line dogs I've seen "work" in person at schutzhund clubs and in video.......They all except for a select few had real working ability. The lack of drive, lack of intensity, the lack of confidence, and even the desire to work just weren't there.  And Markobytes, regardless of the depth of the grass, which doesn't look very deep at all.......you cannot tell me that is normal!  

Show line people try so hard, so often to come up with things to make these horrible structured dogs sound like they should be that way.  Many have even tried to pretend it's normal for the dogs who look like they are eternaly peeing.

Just so we have the record straight, we believe the most HOT titled female GSD in the US, maybe the world, was a 100% GSL. Sch3, IOP3, UD, agility titles, HIC, TC, CGC, etc.. She was one of the few dogs to receive a standing ovation at the German Sieger for her protection work. Maybe some here don't consider AKC titles to be working titles, so this might not  be too impressive, but try to put a CDX or a UD on a dog sometime and get back to me. We also believe the most titled HOT male was also a GSL owned and trained by the same owner. It's inaccurate to suggest that  GSL's lack the desire and ability to be good working dogs because of their pedigrees. 

The star of our winter trial was a female HOT GSL female. 

BTW structure is very important of course, but even the best specimen will not make a good working dog if it lacks the will to serve. Many unsound, cowhocked dogs have completed the Iditarod and I find it hard to believe that there are no Sch titled dogs that are either too angulated or too straight on one end or both.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=33 

I suppose this guy would be at the back of the pack if he had to compete in todays showring.  The standard havent changed when this dog was there why interpret it differently today?

From "The German Shepherd History" by Gordon Garrette

Now I have to deviate somewhat to discuss the various bones and their place in  the overall picture. This is not going to be a lesson in anatomy, other books tell us what  they are all called and where they are.   Let it suffice that we understand that any  particular bone or angle in one dog does not necessarily correspond to the bones or angles  in another. Therefore we get different fulcrum values in one dog than we do in another.  Also something that is becoming very evident is timing differences, the matching of the  movement of one limb to another. Sometimes  when all else fails to explain an extra German Sheph
movement, consider it may be a timing factor. Timing factors that cause problems are  invariably the result of disproportionate  bones relating to others and consequently  muscles being disproportionate to what they should be. Tied in with this is the difference  in musculature structure, the strength, and  the difference in relative ligamentation, the  sinews that hold the bones together. e.g. long bones - long muscles.  All these characteristics vary from one dog to another, it has been the selection of  the carriers of these variations through the  years, by judges and  breeders, which have  made the difference in what the breed has become. The choices have affected just how  the German Shepherd or for that matter any breed has become expected to move, and be.  This partially explains the evolution, the change in style or type from one generation to  another. It is a selection process and is shown in pictures as what the breed has become in  different countries. 
Through the years it was found that some characteristics tend to stay with others.  They are said to correlate. From the beginning there were correlatives that were difficult  to break up in the efforts to produce the desired dog shape with the desired mentality.   For example it was found by Fortunate Fields that the light-eyed dogs tended to  be better working dogs but they wanted dark eyed dogs for the show ring. Also from the  same experimental kennels came the belief  by the German working dog fraternity that  there is a strong correlation  between the dark gray dogs  and natural working ability,  which probably dates back to the prominent colour of the Swabian Working dogs. In the  formative years and well beyond, the German breeders tried to get as much Beowolf in  the pedigrees as possible because of his perceived vitality. This went on for many years. 
 

There are correlatives that are not  as obvious, sometimes missing a few  generations. Audifax von Grafrath HGH, when we look at the picture of this herding dog,  we see a kinky coat that probably came from his nondescript ancestors. He also shows an  excellent shoulder assembly with the bones of the shoulder meeting in as close as one  might find to a ninety-degree angle. He also had very upright  pasterns. These two  characteristics are almost impossible to get back together. A very interesting observation  is that proper shoulder angulation achieved not through a weakening of ligamentation (let  down pasterns etc.) are often found on animals with kinky coats. Erich von Grafenwerth  who also went back to the herding dogs through Hettal and most particularly Flora with  her unknown ancestry was often blamed for producing kinky coats. From his picture he  looks like he has an excellent shoulder assembly, the link, if there is one cannot be traced  between Erich and Audifax.   Another example of sorts would be if a dog's ligamentation is weak and exhibits a very  let down appearance in the rear, like standing in a semi crouch, it would be expected to  find the same dog let down in the pasterns, being also infirm there. Such animals could  very well show as very free moving animals with good extension of the front legs as they  reach forward. It should also be noted that they do not take the weight of the dog well as  they land and go down on their pasterns but also seen as a weakness in the shoulder  assembly. The Germans called this "falling  on the front".  

With the pictured dog, the giving in pasterns  and lifting other front foot in a flip up.

Also noticed would be extra flipping of the front feet, slapping the ground  (paddling). This looseness of ligamentation could also give the impression that the dog  does follow through in the rear with an extreme angle at the stifle as has become almost  universal. The extreme angle restricts the ability of the femur to move backward. It is  suggested that the extreme angle of the pelvis allows for quicker turns like an actual  pivoting on the hind legs. If this is so it is because it throws the hind end further forward  under the body but loses extension and consequently drive behind. Is it looseness in front  correlating with the same rear, or all over looseness?   Looseness of ligamentation in the rear assembly will allow a certain amount of  flexibility in the hock joint but ironically the stifle remains fixed. It creates the  impression of drive. (Macdonald Lyon in "The Dog in Action" found that a 30-degree  angle off the horizontal was the most efficient angle. It has not been disputed but the  American German Shepherd has moved to a far more extreme angle, of croup and the  pelvis). Lyon based his theories on the work done by Fortunate Fields in the book by  Humphries, "Working Dogs".   Following are pictures taken through time of dogs stopped in motion as I  attempted to catch dogs with all four feet off the ground. It brought a realization that  many dogs do not balance the alternative legs as has been declared in books on the  German Shepherd, but rather a three stage gait, an optical illusion. It is shown in pictures.   This evolution has sharpened the angle at the stifle and hock joints to the point  that they are almost set in immovable angulation, (known as sickle hocks). The angle of  the pelvis is decided by the general angle  of the croup which of course includes the
smooth setting on of the tail but the actual angle of the pelvis as it sits on a dog standing  naturally four square, is the important, relative factor.  

The pictured female illustrates near perfect  balance of front and rear alternate legs  working as units. They push off together but  don’t touch down together. Is it a short upper  arm? The back is firm, reach is  straightforward and indicates proper shoulder  angle. Croup could be a bit steep, restricting  straightening of stifle a bit. Upper arm is  vertical at forward extension.