who breeds the hardest dog - Page 4

@yellowtailz i think im breeding cama with czar. then i MIGHT co-own that pup. 

@everybody why dont you think schutzhund trainers/breeders/etc. dont go for ring or knpv dogs
what would ya think of doing a breeding of knpv and ring dogs????? what do ya think the output would be.
i sometimes feel that breeders(not all breeders) but they focus on just what the dog's sport is going to be. let me explain
an example kind of is like if your breeding for schutzhund you only breed schutzhund dogs.
why can we bring in new dogs from different background like ring or knpv?

I spoke to som that has been in compettion for many years and hé told mé that the gsd that many had back In the 80's where to hard to get the points In schh, hé told mé many had problems with obedience especially in bitework, they had to use e-collars and the other collars with spines to get the dogs to obey and they could not care less If the e-collars was at it highest or they would kick him , they would not just let go of the sleeve, they took corrections like nothing or the dog would come after you so hé said that they had alot of hardness at the time , not A's today the dog is more cooperative and soft towards corrections

jim,hank, as always you guys post good stuff.hank i will guarentee breeds and raises hard dogs.
i get some results back on dogs we have trained and placed with various pd.when they get the dog a lot more training goes into the dog.
 jim,as you guys train so do most pds'. i have exported several young dogs to a client in canada that puts extensive training into the dogs. guess what? they alll don't make dual purpose.
 i have had people bring their so called hard dog here. i sure have a different view of hard than they do as most are probably suited for sport not police work.

I doubt a dog with more aggresion than average will tolerate handlers that correct much and hard. Many dogs labeld hard are probably not so hard but just made less sensitive to corrections by clumsy handlers that constantly jerks the dog around. Hardness is how a dog acts/cope after something that the dog finds stressfull, like running into a electrical fence or a firecracker going of near the dog. So corrections and the often highly excited state a dog is when recieving this may not be about the dogs hardness. Not actvites that the dog doesn´t find unpleasant either, like a gunshot or bitework that the dog in question isn´t bothered about. Very hard dogs is also very rare and not to be desired because they are hard to train and probably not so intressted to cooperate with a human, the other extremes very soft dogs is also not desired because they  could be too sensitive and submissive.

I don´t know if dogs werer harder in former times, or if it was the trainingstyle that made dogs going after the owner and lacking controll myret spoke about, why train in such a way that the dog either bites you or refuses to out anyway, logically this would tell you leads nowhere.

kt483, dogs from other sports or jobs are being used, but I guess in germany all dogs comes from SCH because it´s required for breeding.

johan77

I cant answer your question ,but we can sure tel that we all have different oppinions on hardness and drives

my female is not hard at all I miss some hardness and think she is to submissive when corrected , but Like slamdunc wrote she bounces back fine but very handler soft and cooperative

if a dog does not care about a E-collar and it has to be very high before the dog reacts or the prong collar and the dog still does not let go if that is the problem then I would call this dog to have hardness enough to withstand correction and its own opinion without loosing drive

J haynes,
You are welcome to come out anytime and train with us.  We train as a unit every Tuesday.  Day shift the first 3 Tuesdays, evenings on the last Tuesday of the month.  The second Tuesday is generally firearms training for the first half of the day.  Locations and times will vary as we try to train in new places every week.  Let me know and I will arrange it. 

Just to clarify, as I stated before...Hardness is not only in relation to corrections, that is a part of it.  Hardness, IMO is the dogs ability to handle any unpleasant or adverse situation or stimuli, not just corrections and it's ability to stay in drive, be resilient and unphased form the negative experience.   The amount of time it takes a dog to recover form an unpleasant experience and go back to work, back in drive or simply recovers is a measure of hardness.  This could be almost instantaneous, seconds, hours or days depending on how severe the experience was or how severe the dog perceived it to be.  The recovery time; back to normal or back into drive has a lot to do with how "hard" the dog is.  This is different than handler aggression and redirecting after an unpleasant or frustrating experience to the dog.  Hard dogs are not necessarily handler aggressive and handler aggressive dogs are not necessarily hard, although they can be. 

JMO,

Jim

if a dog does not care about a E-collar and it has to be very high before the dog reacts or the prong collar and the dog still does not let go if that is the problem then I would call this dog to have hardness enough to withstand correction and its own opinion without loosing drive

To me, that's not hardness, that's bad training. 

Blackthorn,
Exactly right. 

i agree

Not always though..... I've seen more than my share of dogs that were multiple lga participants and one went on to the wusv in boston in 98 that would do just as myret described and it takes a long time of bonding & training to cooperate and work with their new handler & not against them. The dogs I speak of are not for the newbie. I've seen a muzzle get put on the dog that went to the wusv in 98 doing obedience with him....lol. not all of them were handler aggresive but that is certainly a side affect that happens with many very very hard dogs. Especially when they are sold as an adult. I would describe some of these dogs as a game bred pit bull in german shepherd skin. definately not for the faint at heart. there are way to many variables in this subject as a few have mentioned bu t I will say that anyone who ask on the pdb where to get a dog like that probably isn't ready for one...... Be careful what you ask for.:) Myret.... those dogs of the 80's still exist today. Yes they are harder to find and you have to dig a little deeper in the pocketbook but they are far from extinct. And people here seem to think these dogs can't do high level sport. Wasn't nick a bsp participant? there are very few people "ESPECIALLY HERE IN THE STATES"that have the knowledge & skill to take dogs like that to high level competition but there are a few. I certainly ain't one of them lol....but I do know who can and knows where to find them. Just my 2 cents worth. Kurt