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by Sunsilver on 08 January 2010 - 16:01
Jackal, the softer temperment of the Shiloh was indeed a deliberate choice. Tina used to breed dogs specifically for protection, and could have kept the harder temperment needed for police and security work, but chose not to.
The Ovcharka has no relation to the Shiloh, or to the dogs Tina's grandmother bred. However, just to clarify, these dogs (her grandmother's) WERE GSD's, they WERE from Eastern Europe (Poland), so I am fairly confident in saying these were the same dogs used in the development of the Eastern European strain of the GSD. These dogs WOULD back up a threat with action, if pushed, too.
As for the temperment of the Shiloh, all breeding stock MUST pass the test for gunsureness, and the basic temperment test used by the AKC. (Actually the gunsureness test is part of the temperment test.) This is done after 1 year of age. Dogs that are excessively spooky or shy aren't bred. "Soft' tempernent is not the same as shy.
The Ovcharka has no relation to the Shiloh, or to the dogs Tina's grandmother bred. However, just to clarify, these dogs (her grandmother's) WERE GSD's, they WERE from Eastern Europe (Poland), so I am fairly confident in saying these were the same dogs used in the development of the Eastern European strain of the GSD. These dogs WOULD back up a threat with action, if pushed, too.
As for the temperment of the Shiloh, all breeding stock MUST pass the test for gunsureness, and the basic temperment test used by the AKC. (Actually the gunsureness test is part of the temperment test.) This is done after 1 year of age. Dogs that are excessively spooky or shy aren't bred. "Soft' tempernent is not the same as shy.
by mariaartashes on 08 January 2010 - 16:01
Сuriosly, but this dogs used in Army and Police and today. Not so oft (mostly - show-GSD).
In Russia work often with dogs, wich owner give out. What dog you become - with this you will work...
EEShepherds was main guard dog for 50-80 jears! And today people buy them as security dog, but...
If it interesting, I can write on russian how named this Race and then you can youself look all in Internet )))
восточноевропейская овчарка
Good Luck!
In Russia work often with dogs, wich owner give out. What dog you become - with this you will work...
EEShepherds was main guard dog for 50-80 jears! And today people buy them as security dog, but...
If it interesting, I can write on russian how named this Race and then you can youself look all in Internet )))
восточноевропейская овчарка
Good Luck!
by Shtal on 08 January 2010 - 17:01
I'm more concerned now about people who open their mouth very hard against oversize dogs about ~2 months ago, but now they keep their mouth shut and would not say anything about this dogs.
Dear Sunsilver thank you for your comment!
Dear Sunsilver thank you for your comment!
by yoshy on 08 January 2010 - 17:01
Well im new to the forum and I ask one thing and one thing only.
to change my mind on the use of these dogs show me
Someone show me an actual working benefit? Something that 100+lb 30" GSD can do that my 85lb 25" GSD cant!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats all i want and i want say another word. If its not beneficial to the breed why change the standard. As you so clearly want to do. Show me the benefit of largening the breed. Show me cases where these dogs are as capable and durable as
working dogs today in serious jobs.
My personal dogs i buy for working ability and fit me. If there is no added benefit why buy one. Why breed something that is not capable for the intended use of the breed? Some may work but is there any as proficient or bring something to the table that high end working "breed standard size" shepherds cant do?
to change my mind on the use of these dogs show me
Someone show me an actual working benefit? Something that 100+lb 30" GSD can do that my 85lb 25" GSD cant!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats all i want and i want say another word. If its not beneficial to the breed why change the standard. As you so clearly want to do. Show me the benefit of largening the breed. Show me cases where these dogs are as capable and durable as
working dogs today in serious jobs.
My personal dogs i buy for working ability and fit me. If there is no added benefit why buy one. Why breed something that is not capable for the intended use of the breed? Some may work but is there any as proficient or bring something to the table that high end working "breed standard size" shepherds cant do?
by Shtal on 08 January 2010 - 17:01
Dear Jackal73 you said "Show me pedigrees with titles, or YouTube videos."
Do you feel now that you have to take one step back; because you jump to quickly with negative attitude about this dogs.
I know smaller dog is faster, but large dogs are not useless.
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Jackal73 you still have no support from other people from that list.
Do you feel now that you have to take one step back; because you jump to quickly with negative attitude about this dogs.
I know smaller dog is faster, but large dogs are not useless.
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Jackal73 you still have no support from other people from that list.
by Shtal on 08 January 2010 - 17:01
Look people Jackal73 is not winning the case by himself.
by Sunsilver on 08 January 2010 - 17:01
Shtal, the fact remains that the breed standard for the GSD throughout most of the world is a maximum of 26 inches for males, and 24 for females. I agree that larger dogs are not useless, but the standard is the standard.
If people want to breed outside of the standard, that's fine. But they need to realized that not everyone is going to be happy about what they are doing, nor are their dogs going to be accepted in the breed ring. Also, the dog needs to bring something to the table other than large size.
Unlike some, I don't have a firm stand on this. Some of the great dogs of the past were oversized. Vello von der Sieben Faulen, the sire of Bernd and Bodo v. Lierburg was oversized, and did not get a koer rating as a result. Yet you will find his son, Bernd, in the pedigree of just about every modern working line GSD.
And it's common knowledge that many VA dogs, both past and present, have been measured with an 'elastic' measuring stick. Only recently has the SV been forced to put oversized dogs to the back of the class when they are being judged.
But the standard is the standard, and until it changes, oversized dog will not be widely accepted. It's interesting to read about these dogs, but I really think you're beating a dead horse here.
If people want to breed outside of the standard, that's fine. But they need to realized that not everyone is going to be happy about what they are doing, nor are their dogs going to be accepted in the breed ring. Also, the dog needs to bring something to the table other than large size.
Unlike some, I don't have a firm stand on this. Some of the great dogs of the past were oversized. Vello von der Sieben Faulen, the sire of Bernd and Bodo v. Lierburg was oversized, and did not get a koer rating as a result. Yet you will find his son, Bernd, in the pedigree of just about every modern working line GSD.
And it's common knowledge that many VA dogs, both past and present, have been measured with an 'elastic' measuring stick. Only recently has the SV been forced to put oversized dogs to the back of the class when they are being judged.
But the standard is the standard, and until it changes, oversized dog will not be widely accepted. It's interesting to read about these dogs, but I really think you're beating a dead horse here.
by Jackal73 on 08 January 2010 - 17:01
Tina used to breed dogs specifically for protection, and could have kept the harder temperment needed for police and security work, but chose not to.
There isn't much point in keeping the harder temperament if you want a dog that's primarily a companion/therapy/etc. dog, which is my understanding of what she's aiming for with the Shiloh. It's interesting know that that's deliberate with the Shiloh, but apparently happened spontaneously with the Ovcharka according to what mariaartashes says. (Sorry about getting your name wrong above mariaartashes, but my accidental overrun on the character limit means I can't go back and fix it, the page crashes if I try.)
What this appears to prove (again) is that unless drive and working ability are specifically bred for -- or retained naturally by environmental circumstance, which is another driver -- then the dogs lose their abilities even if the parent stock had it. This applies to people who are breeding within the standard but not focusing on performance as well as people who are focused on some other trait (like colour or size). Essentially we've come full circle as opposed to proving Shtal's thesis that his oversized dogs are just as good as the smaller dogs that working/sport people favor. No proof, and general anecdotal evidence to the contrary. (Though absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, you still can't refute something that doesn't have proof of it's existence in the first place. It's kind of like my asserting that Bigfoot doesn't exist. It could, I suppose, but I've never seen anything to indicate that it's fact and not rumor. Same thing with oversized GSD being "just as good" as the standard sized ones -- rumor, rumor, no evidence.)
Edited to add: My apologies everyone, it seems the conversation marched on without me. I was responding to Sunsilver's original response to me about Shiloh's. Give me a moment to catch up!
There isn't much point in keeping the harder temperament if you want a dog that's primarily a companion/therapy/etc. dog, which is my understanding of what she's aiming for with the Shiloh. It's interesting know that that's deliberate with the Shiloh, but apparently happened spontaneously with the Ovcharka according to what mariaartashes says. (Sorry about getting your name wrong above mariaartashes, but my accidental overrun on the character limit means I can't go back and fix it, the page crashes if I try.)
What this appears to prove (again) is that unless drive and working ability are specifically bred for -- or retained naturally by environmental circumstance, which is another driver -- then the dogs lose their abilities even if the parent stock had it. This applies to people who are breeding within the standard but not focusing on performance as well as people who are focused on some other trait (like colour or size). Essentially we've come full circle as opposed to proving Shtal's thesis that his oversized dogs are just as good as the smaller dogs that working/sport people favor. No proof, and general anecdotal evidence to the contrary. (Though absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, you still can't refute something that doesn't have proof of it's existence in the first place. It's kind of like my asserting that Bigfoot doesn't exist. It could, I suppose, but I've never seen anything to indicate that it's fact and not rumor. Same thing with oversized GSD being "just as good" as the standard sized ones -- rumor, rumor, no evidence.)
Edited to add: My apologies everyone, it seems the conversation marched on without me. I was responding to Sunsilver's original response to me about Shiloh's. Give me a moment to catch up!
by Shtal on 08 January 2010 - 17:01
I never said bigger dogs just as good as smaller dog.
What I simply want to here is apologies that bigger dogs are not useless what being said while back. That is all I'am asking....
What I simply want to here is apologies that bigger dogs are not useless what being said while back. That is all I'am asking....
by judron55 on 08 January 2010 - 17:01
Jackal73....you're butting your head against a brick....leave it alone and maybe Shtal will vanish again:-)
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