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by Sue B on 31 January 2011 - 11:01
Abby,
Re my statement "Secondly, the only way that statement works (i.e. that you could avoid reproducing that disease by testing a dog with unknown parents) is to NEVER breed from that dog."
I feel you totally miss the relevance to the point I am making here as some have done before. So I will expand it by adding a little more detail in the hope that you better understand exactly where I stand on this and the reasons why.
1. There is a DNA Parentage test available for German Shepherds, which identifies the majority of bloodlines used around the world.
2. So far our KC have shy-ed away from introducing such tests as mandatory (as is the norm for our KC).
3. Yes we are all aware that since the discovery of DNA science is constantly finding 'pointers' to certain diseases.
4. As much as pointers have been found for some diseases the majority still remain undiscovered and perhaps will always be so.
5. Before any of these latest DNA advancements, the only 'pointers' any of us had when breeding any living creature (humans included) was our ancestry and the KNOWN diseases that were KNOWN to be passed on by particular descendent's.
6. As time progressed we heard of and discovered more of these inherited traits.
7. There is still NO TEST available to identify the majority of these diseases / traits and the fact remains that maybe there will never be, simply because not all diseases are hereditary. Not even all of the worse kind, then again some diseases are formed by such a complex mix of genetic engineering that the possibility of predicting if any two particular animals could definitely reproduce it would be an impossible task.
8. Now for the CRUX of the matter.. EVEN IF the Impossible could happen and ALL diseases were eventually identified and could definitely be attributed to a particular DNA marker or set of DNA markers, just how much blood do you think would be needed for these tests? And God forbid that no matter how reluctantly, breeders would have to consider the sheer cost of it all !!
9. Though to me the next step is even less worth contemplating which is, once the results to all these tests are known, how on earth do you think you would ever find a suitable mate for your female? We would all have to become scientists to work out which set of DNA markers produced what and whether or not that disease could be reproduced from just one parent or if it needed both parents to reproduce it. The mind boggles!! Where would we start? What diseases/traits should we consider worth the risk and which not? Nothing would be left to chance, to nature, we would IN FACT be PLAYING GOD !
10. Having no desire to play God, this leads me back to my original statement which I have used many, many times on this board and elsewhere in other articles i.e, "The only way to ensure you never produce a problem, is never to breed !! Full stop."
11. Finally to sum up, DNA parentage proves which bloodlines you are using. By doing their own research knowledgeable breeders can at least hope to identify some problem areas, which cannot be identified in dogs whose lineage is UNPROVEN.
CONTINUED BELOW
Re my statement "Secondly, the only way that statement works (i.e. that you could avoid reproducing that disease by testing a dog with unknown parents) is to NEVER breed from that dog."
I feel you totally miss the relevance to the point I am making here as some have done before. So I will expand it by adding a little more detail in the hope that you better understand exactly where I stand on this and the reasons why.
1. There is a DNA Parentage test available for German Shepherds, which identifies the majority of bloodlines used around the world.
2. So far our KC have shy-ed away from introducing such tests as mandatory (as is the norm for our KC).
3. Yes we are all aware that since the discovery of DNA science is constantly finding 'pointers' to certain diseases.
4. As much as pointers have been found for some diseases the majority still remain undiscovered and perhaps will always be so.
5. Before any of these latest DNA advancements, the only 'pointers' any of us had when breeding any living creature (humans included) was our ancestry and the KNOWN diseases that were KNOWN to be passed on by particular descendent's.
6. As time progressed we heard of and discovered more of these inherited traits.
7. There is still NO TEST available to identify the majority of these diseases / traits and the fact remains that maybe there will never be, simply because not all diseases are hereditary. Not even all of the worse kind, then again some diseases are formed by such a complex mix of genetic engineering that the possibility of predicting if any two particular animals could definitely reproduce it would be an impossible task.
8. Now for the CRUX of the matter.. EVEN IF the Impossible could happen and ALL diseases were eventually identified and could definitely be attributed to a particular DNA marker or set of DNA markers, just how much blood do you think would be needed for these tests? And God forbid that no matter how reluctantly, breeders would have to consider the sheer cost of it all !!
9. Though to me the next step is even less worth contemplating which is, once the results to all these tests are known, how on earth do you think you would ever find a suitable mate for your female? We would all have to become scientists to work out which set of DNA markers produced what and whether or not that disease could be reproduced from just one parent or if it needed both parents to reproduce it. The mind boggles!! Where would we start? What diseases/traits should we consider worth the risk and which not? Nothing would be left to chance, to nature, we would IN FACT be PLAYING GOD !
10. Having no desire to play God, this leads me back to my original statement which I have used many, many times on this board and elsewhere in other articles i.e, "The only way to ensure you never produce a problem, is never to breed !! Full stop."
11. Finally to sum up, DNA parentage proves which bloodlines you are using. By doing their own research knowledgeable breeders can at least hope to identify some problem areas, which cannot be identified in dogs whose lineage is UNPROVEN.
CONTINUED BELOW
by Sue B on 31 January 2011 - 11:01
CONTINUED
When / If the time comes when every solitary disease is defined by a DNA test, I can catagorically assure you I WILL STOP BREEDING, not just because I have no desire to play God, but because I would have no desire to use a mate I would otherwise consider wrong for my female but because realistically there would be very few able to afford the cost of all the tests, let alone any puppy owners wanting to pay the price for the pups produced from these expensively tested parents.
Just one more thing, for arguments sake lets say there were 30 diseases we could test for, each test costing approx £100 each, of course we still do HD & ED xrays etc, after we have paid out somewhere in the region of £3,300 for all these tests, what happens if one of the tests comes back as undesireable? What then? Actually how many reputable breeders of Pedigree dogs do you think would be left?
FINAL SUMMARY - END OF PEDIGREE DOGS.
Regards
Sue b
When / If the time comes when every solitary disease is defined by a DNA test, I can catagorically assure you I WILL STOP BREEDING, not just because I have no desire to play God, but because I would have no desire to use a mate I would otherwise consider wrong for my female but because realistically there would be very few able to afford the cost of all the tests, let alone any puppy owners wanting to pay the price for the pups produced from these expensively tested parents.
Just one more thing, for arguments sake lets say there were 30 diseases we could test for, each test costing approx £100 each, of course we still do HD & ED xrays etc, after we have paid out somewhere in the region of £3,300 for all these tests, what happens if one of the tests comes back as undesireable? What then? Actually how many reputable breeders of Pedigree dogs do you think would be left?
FINAL SUMMARY - END OF PEDIGREE DOGS.
Regards
Sue b
by Abby Normal on 31 January 2011 - 12:01
SueB
I agree with much of what you say, we mostly have differing views on priorities. If you go back to my original point, it was this:
That IMO the KC should address the issue of mandatory health testing backed up by refusing registration of litters from unscored or failing scored parents, as a priority. This would be for those diseases which we can test for, and using current screening schemes such as HD/ED. For me, and this is where we diverge, this would be my first priority for implementation if I were given a choice.
Many of the breeders who breed animals despite bad scores/no scores etc, are not going to DNA test, or adopt any other good breeding practices for that matter, and as we all know are not interested in the future of the breed.
By pushing for mandatory health testing, and more importantly refusal of litter registrations from these dogs, using the tools we do currently have available, some improvement may be achieved in the near future, benefitting ALL breeds, the dogs and those who finally come to own them.
I was under the impression that everyone wanted mandatory health testing.
IMO the only way any of this is going to happen with the KC, is one step at a time. Perhaps the best way forward would be to campaign for the KC to implement the mandatory health testing, and the GSDL/BC to implement an independent DNA scheme.
I agree with much of what you say, we mostly have differing views on priorities. If you go back to my original point, it was this:
That IMO the KC should address the issue of mandatory health testing backed up by refusing registration of litters from unscored or failing scored parents, as a priority. This would be for those diseases which we can test for, and using current screening schemes such as HD/ED. For me, and this is where we diverge, this would be my first priority for implementation if I were given a choice.
Many of the breeders who breed animals despite bad scores/no scores etc, are not going to DNA test, or adopt any other good breeding practices for that matter, and as we all know are not interested in the future of the breed.
By pushing for mandatory health testing, and more importantly refusal of litter registrations from these dogs, using the tools we do currently have available, some improvement may be achieved in the near future, benefitting ALL breeds, the dogs and those who finally come to own them.
I was under the impression that everyone wanted mandatory health testing.
IMO the only way any of this is going to happen with the KC, is one step at a time. Perhaps the best way forward would be to campaign for the KC to implement the mandatory health testing, and the GSDL/BC to implement an independent DNA scheme.
by missbeeb on 31 January 2011 - 13:01
Abby... Re: last para: we've been there, done that... KC not interested, it could be detrimental to their income... that would never do!
by Videx on 31 January 2011 - 14:01
Two years ago I sent copies detailed correspondence I had with the Animal Health Trust (AHT) about setting up a DNA parentage Scheme for the GSD here in Great Britain which would be compatible with the SV DNA parentage Scheme, to Sheila Rankin Breed Council Secretary. Who in turn copied it to John Cullen GSD Breed Council Chairman. Like many progressive proposals and schemes, once the GSD Breed Council have anything to do with it you just know it will not reach fruition. The following posts may cause some considerable disillusionment amongst GSD enthusiasts regarding the complete failure of the GSD Breed Council & The GSD League & The BAGSD to take this very important initiative forward over the last two years.
How can we take our GSD Breed forward and implement very important changes and initiatives with the obvious lack of meaningful leadership amongst our major GSD breed organisations.
It must come as no surprise that any potential progress for our GSD breed here within the UK has some huge obstacles to overcome, not least the GSD Breed Council and The GSD League committee and The BAGSD Council, but also The Kennel Club and the apathetic attitude of far too many so called GSD Breed enthusiasts.
sent Fri 09/01/2009 13:14
Good Afternoon Mark Vaudin & Nigel Holmes (AHT)
I am inquiring as to the possibility that you could offer your DNA profiling & DNA parentage TESTS in the following manner:
a) DNA test (profile) a number of individual dogs – recording them as “DNA recorded”
b) When an offspring from ONE of the “DNA recorded” dogs is sampled and sent in for DNA profiling – it is recorded as “DNA recorded” because only ONE parent is “DNA recorded” (ON FILE)
c) when an offspring from TWO of the “DNA recorded” dogs (Sire & Dam) is sampled and sent in for DNA profiling – it is recorded as “DNA recorded & parentage proven”
and so on.
This system is offered by the SV & WUSV in Germany (by far the largest national & international GSD clubs in the World), and used extensively. It would be very useful to have such a system available in the United Kingdom for the GSD here, and of course ALL other breeds of dogs.
Many breeders and owners of dogs would desire to have their dog(s) DNA test for parentage, however very few will also OWN their dogs parents. The system of DNA testing for parentage that you currently offer, apparently requires ALL THREE blood samples to be sent into AHT at the same time, that is the DOG for parentage DNA testing and BOTH its parents. This is rarely possible or practical.
I hope you see the value of offering DNA parentage testing, in the manner outlined above, particularly as an ongoing and expanding service. I understand that the DNA parentage tests from the SV Germany, and your own DNA parentage tests are NOT compatable, for reasons I do not understand. This makes your tests in the UK for UK breeders somewhat more desirable.
I look forward to your considered response.
I trust my comments about what AHT currently offer are accurate, if not I look forward to being enlightened.
Best regards
David Payne
How can we take our GSD Breed forward and implement very important changes and initiatives with the obvious lack of meaningful leadership amongst our major GSD breed organisations.
It must come as no surprise that any potential progress for our GSD breed here within the UK has some huge obstacles to overcome, not least the GSD Breed Council and The GSD League committee and The BAGSD Council, but also The Kennel Club and the apathetic attitude of far too many so called GSD Breed enthusiasts.
sent Fri 09/01/2009 13:14
Good Afternoon Mark Vaudin & Nigel Holmes (AHT)
I am inquiring as to the possibility that you could offer your DNA profiling & DNA parentage TESTS in the following manner:
a) DNA test (profile) a number of individual dogs – recording them as “DNA recorded”
b) When an offspring from ONE of the “DNA recorded” dogs is sampled and sent in for DNA profiling – it is recorded as “DNA recorded” because only ONE parent is “DNA recorded” (ON FILE)
c) when an offspring from TWO of the “DNA recorded” dogs (Sire & Dam) is sampled and sent in for DNA profiling – it is recorded as “DNA recorded & parentage proven”
and so on.
This system is offered by the SV & WUSV in Germany (by far the largest national & international GSD clubs in the World), and used extensively. It would be very useful to have such a system available in the United Kingdom for the GSD here, and of course ALL other breeds of dogs.
Many breeders and owners of dogs would desire to have their dog(s) DNA test for parentage, however very few will also OWN their dogs parents. The system of DNA testing for parentage that you currently offer, apparently requires ALL THREE blood samples to be sent into AHT at the same time, that is the DOG for parentage DNA testing and BOTH its parents. This is rarely possible or practical.
I hope you see the value of offering DNA parentage testing, in the manner outlined above, particularly as an ongoing and expanding service. I understand that the DNA parentage tests from the SV Germany, and your own DNA parentage tests are NOT compatable, for reasons I do not understand. This makes your tests in the UK for UK breeders somewhat more desirable.
I look forward to your considered response.
I trust my comments about what AHT currently offer are accurate, if not I look forward to being enlightened.
Best regards
David Payne
by Videx on 31 January 2011 - 14:01
Dear David,
Thank you for your e-mail
We do offer profiling and parentage. although the two schemes are not identical.
Our parentage service is currently run on a confidential basis to the client - however, if GSD clubs wanted us to set up a system where results could be released to the club or clubs then we could certainly do that. it would be made clear on the form that results would be sent on a regular basis to a third party and clients would then sign to confirm that they had read and agreed with those terms. Any breeder not signing could not, therefore, submit a sample for that profiling/parentage service. The current DNA profiling service is a separate scheme from our parentage scheme - the profiling scheme is in fact run jointly with the Kennel Club whereas the parentage scheme is not.
I am not sure why our results would not be compatible with those of other laboratories, such as those in the SV Germany scheme that you quote. However, the current situation for DNA profiling of dogs is not as straightforward as it could be and there are several standards in operation. We use a standard from the International Society of Animal Genetics (ISAG) which is supported by a two year international comparison test run by that organisation - this enables us (and other laboratories around the world) to standardise the profiles which we hold on our databases and ensures that the profiles from one laboratory are compatible with those from other laboratories. We can therefore exchange profiles with other laboratories and use those profiles, for example for verifying parentage. The original ISAG standard (ISAG2004) has now been replaced by another standard ISAG2006. We can do profiles to either standard, although our joint AHT/KC Profiling Scheme is run on ISAG2004. We do however do parentage analysis to ISAG2006. I would need to know a little more about the technical details of the SV Germany scheme to be able to confirm whether their profiles are compatible with either of these ISAG standards - although most European testing labs do use the ISAG standards.
I hope that answers your questions,
Regards,
Nigel Holmes
Thank you for your e-mail
We do offer profiling and parentage. although the two schemes are not identical.
Our parentage service is currently run on a confidential basis to the client - however, if GSD clubs wanted us to set up a system where results could be released to the club or clubs then we could certainly do that. it would be made clear on the form that results would be sent on a regular basis to a third party and clients would then sign to confirm that they had read and agreed with those terms. Any breeder not signing could not, therefore, submit a sample for that profiling/parentage service. The current DNA profiling service is a separate scheme from our parentage scheme - the profiling scheme is in fact run jointly with the Kennel Club whereas the parentage scheme is not.
I am not sure why our results would not be compatible with those of other laboratories, such as those in the SV Germany scheme that you quote. However, the current situation for DNA profiling of dogs is not as straightforward as it could be and there are several standards in operation. We use a standard from the International Society of Animal Genetics (ISAG) which is supported by a two year international comparison test run by that organisation - this enables us (and other laboratories around the world) to standardise the profiles which we hold on our databases and ensures that the profiles from one laboratory are compatible with those from other laboratories. We can therefore exchange profiles with other laboratories and use those profiles, for example for verifying parentage. The original ISAG standard (ISAG2004) has now been replaced by another standard ISAG2006. We can do profiles to either standard, although our joint AHT/KC Profiling Scheme is run on ISAG2004. We do however do parentage analysis to ISAG2006. I would need to know a little more about the technical details of the SV Germany scheme to be able to confirm whether their profiles are compatible with either of these ISAG standards - although most European testing labs do use the ISAG standards.
I hope that answers your questions,
Regards,
Nigel Holmes
by Videx on 31 January 2011 - 14:01
From: David Payne
Sent: 10 January 2009 09:07
To: Wendy; Andrew Winfrow; Brigid Newlands; Sheila Rankin
Cc: Thomasmonds@aol.com; Chris Hazell; Gayville (david.gsds@blueyonder.co.uk); John Ward; nikki@nikonisgsd.co.uk; Paul Bradley; Philip Prince (shernaa@tiscali.co.uk); Steve Foran
Subject: FW: CANINE DNA TESTING - LINK ON MY WEBSITE? and DNA profiling LINKING with DNA parentage testing
To: The GSD Breed Council & BAGSD & The GSD League (The GSD-UK Partnership)
I am very interested in a DNA Parentage Testing System being introduced in the UK for German Shepherd Dogs. I would also wish this to be linked with an Identification System of a Tattoo/Microchip requirement.
I contacted the Animal Health Trust by telephone and discussed at length what they currently offer, following which I wrote my email below to the persons I was advised could provide the answers to my consequential questions.
I received a reply from Nigel Holmes (below) and his reply offers considerable potential for the introduction of a DNA Parentage Testing System within the United Kingdom for our breed.
I would NOT hold my breath waiting for the Kennel Club to facilitate this, however with our new and potentially very promising GSD-UK Partnership being inaugurated recently, I felt this issue would be perfect for them to Facilitate for our breed here in the UK. This would clearly demonstrate that the GSD-UK Partnership are proactive in introducing valuable Systems into the UK for our breed, in line with their individual Organisations history in relation to The Hip Scheme, The Tattoo Scheme and Haemophilia testing scheme.
I hope the GSD-UK Partnership will pursue this initiative with some vigour and determination, Our breed needs such an approach with its attendant publicity, it will certainly generate enthusiasm and support for your current dealings with The Kennel Club.
I have emailed Reinhardt Meyer SV National Breed Warden, separately regarding compatibility of the AHT and SV DNA Parentage Tests. I can forward you a copy of my email if you wish.
Best regards
David Payne
VIDEX GSD
Sent: 10 January 2009 09:07
To: Wendy; Andrew Winfrow; Brigid Newlands; Sheila Rankin
Cc: Thomasmonds@aol.com; Chris Hazell; Gayville (david.gsds@blueyonder.co.uk); John Ward; nikki@nikonisgsd.co.uk; Paul Bradley; Philip Prince (shernaa@tiscali.co.uk); Steve Foran
Subject: FW: CANINE DNA TESTING - LINK ON MY WEBSITE? and DNA profiling LINKING with DNA parentage testing
To: The GSD Breed Council & BAGSD & The GSD League (The GSD-UK Partnership)
I am very interested in a DNA Parentage Testing System being introduced in the UK for German Shepherd Dogs. I would also wish this to be linked with an Identification System of a Tattoo/Microchip requirement.
I contacted the Animal Health Trust by telephone and discussed at length what they currently offer, following which I wrote my email below to the persons I was advised could provide the answers to my consequential questions.
I received a reply from Nigel Holmes (below) and his reply offers considerable potential for the introduction of a DNA Parentage Testing System within the United Kingdom for our breed.
I would NOT hold my breath waiting for the Kennel Club to facilitate this, however with our new and potentially very promising GSD-UK Partnership being inaugurated recently, I felt this issue would be perfect for them to Facilitate for our breed here in the UK. This would clearly demonstrate that the GSD-UK Partnership are proactive in introducing valuable Systems into the UK for our breed, in line with their individual Organisations history in relation to The Hip Scheme, The Tattoo Scheme and Haemophilia testing scheme.
I hope the GSD-UK Partnership will pursue this initiative with some vigour and determination, Our breed needs such an approach with its attendant publicity, it will certainly generate enthusiasm and support for your current dealings with The Kennel Club.
I have emailed Reinhardt Meyer SV National Breed Warden, separately regarding compatibility of the AHT and SV DNA Parentage Tests. I can forward you a copy of my email if you wish.
Best regards
David Payne
VIDEX GSD
by Videx on 31 January 2011 - 14:01
From: Sheila Rankin
Sent: 10 January 2009 12:19
To: David Payne
Cc: Wendy; Andrew Winfrow; Brigid Newlands; Thomasmonds@aol.com; Chris Hazell; Gayville; John Ward; nikki farley; Paul Bradley; Philip Prince; Steve Foran; pauline cullen
Subject: CANINE DNA TESTING and DNA profiling LINKING with DNA parentage testing
Thank you for the information, I have added John Cullen into it.
Regards,
Sheila
Sent: 10 January 2009 12:19
To: David Payne
Cc: Wendy; Andrew Winfrow; Brigid Newlands; Thomasmonds@aol.com; Chris Hazell; Gayville; John Ward; nikki farley; Paul Bradley; Philip Prince; Steve Foran; pauline cullen
Subject: CANINE DNA TESTING and DNA profiling LINKING with DNA parentage testing
Thank you for the information, I have added John Cullen into it.
Regards,
Sheila
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