One Breed - Page 3

The "let's split the breed" thing gets more confusing when looked at
from a global perspective. Here in the UK we currently have a
resurgence of our own "let's split the breed" arguments - but it is not
the WL / SL divide, it is our old enemy the GSD / Alsatian problem.
Plus ca change ...

Hundemutter - The breed in the UK has always been a problem for the Kennel Club to properly come to terms with. The KC has always been reluctant to make amendments in the breed standard to fall in line with the rest of the world. The differences in the breed began when more and more people turned to the German Lines and the type of dogs that they produced and they continue to do so. As a result of this the KC have been forced into changes due to pressure from the followers of the SV not only in the breed standard but also on other issues i.e. hip and elbow scoring and other health matters.

As you know many of the Alsatianist’s as they are known have bloodlines known for epilepsy, hip dysplasia, character etc. These old English bloodlines were allowed to continue because the KC allowed them to and because they stuck to outdated standards and Members of the KC with little knowledge of our breed. The Alsatianist’s were led in the beginning by Roy Brandon (a KC member) whose lines were based on Eclypse of Eveley, a son of Quadrille and Marydown Little Venus, and his two sisters Enchantment and Efne.

I hope, for the sake of the breed, that the Alsatianist faction is a diminishing entity in the UK.

Mackenzie

Yeah,thanks for the history lesson, Mack.

 

Although I wouldn't quite agree with you when you define when "the differences

began ...".  Yes more of the GSD 'community'   " turned to the German dogs " ,  but

its more about the time when they turned BACK to them !   If you study what the Elliots

etc  wrote, the breed was fine in its early days here, being almost all German Imports

or their progeny.  Its what the Brit. 'Show Scene' did with the resulting generations

that led to "Alsatian" type.

And its taken us a long time to redress the balance, with the likes of Phil Kellingley

still currently stirring the pot.

All the progress is complicated by the road down which the SV has led us, however,

with the extremes of topline and hind angulation problems - we have to admit there

are some there, even if its a matter largely of aesthetics rather than health & function. 

 

And then if you add in the Work v. Show battle being led by our American cousins,  it

stands to become even more complex ... 

First, I do not think the divide can be brought together as long as people VIEW the breed as WL vs SL. I realize this is difficult for many today, having said that I think the image of the dog and the purpose of getting a GS has dramatically changed. This has led to proliferation in the division. People used to acquire this breed for the traits articulated in the standard, even families who sought this breed understood the traits and acquired the dog for the traits AS well as companion. The image of the dog was strong, sure, protective animal that could be trusted with defending person and property much as early shepherding dogs did. The breed evolved into one of distinctive beauty, with striking color, that was a" friend to everyone". This makeover increased popularity of breed and as breeders tried to breed for one perspective or the other, the divide increased. As people started understanding what had occurred, then people who wanted a GS for former reason looked for and strengthen the WL, and people enamored with the new image and need to share their dog with everyone was steered towards SL.
I still look at the breed from one perspective.....when I see a strong, lithe, sure, confident German Shepherd that is apparent to me that has the ability and capability of representing the values of the traits in standard, regardless of color, I think that's a nice GS. OTOH, if I see a clumsy, slow, non athletic, tepid, worried look in eyes when dealing with new faces and places, then I think that is not a representative of the breed. Regardless of color or background. Plain and simple.

Great post Gustav, we should bring the two types closer keeping in mind both the traits & structure

Gustav.

 

I,m looking forward see that SL dogs on the BSP or WUSV and the WL GSD  black/grey  in the VA group BSZS

Are here on this forum the serious WL breeders using  today SL in their program, I,m waiting  to see Staatsmacht,
Schiffslage, Brandevoort using the SL in their program if this ever gonna happen.....................
 

 

You won't see reputable breeders that consistently produce high level sport or working dogs use anything less than what is needed to continue to produce those types of dogs. SL people can deny it all they want but at the end of the day the working ability of their dogs isn't close to those of WL dogs. You rarely see SL at regional Schutzhund trials, and even rarer at nationals. That tells you something.

It takes dozens of breedings to build a reputation as a consistent working dog producer. It takes one to ruin that reputation. No one that has built that would willingly destroy it just to add some "better" structure.

If there was a SL stud that would show that he can work, and also prove that he can produce dogs that can work, I can see some people using that type of stud with a WL female. But the proof would have to be there with progeny and not just a single good working dog.

Hundemutter - of course the first dogs of the breed came into the UK from Germany after the war. These were the foundation breeding dogs in the breed. As time went by the English Breeders developed their own bloodlines and those of the original stock faded into the background apart from a few in the backend of the pedigree. Although Percy and his wife Nem put their kennel names together in the 60’s I think and, became Vikkas av Hvitsand the German dogs were not so common . Percy and Nem were the voice of German dogs in the UK and as you know this is well documented. The German dogs picked up a bit with the introduction of Ilk vd Eschabacher Klippen and Joll v Bemholt and one or two others in the seventies although the Brittas kennel had used a few German dogs as had Miss Moncrieffe. By the end of the mid seventies things picked up more rapidly with the introduction of Cito v Koenigsbruch which immediately clicked with the blood from the Hendrawens Sparticist line. About 1980 the German side really started to kick off with many breeders moving over to that side which has continued since then. The SV has taken the UK away from the Alsatianists for those who want to follow the German way and IMO this is a much more positive way forward with their system. Before this the UK had no system at all and this was creating many problems within the breed. I know that you will know these things but I have written them for the benefit of the readers who do not know.

Gustav - Good post, we are banging the same drum.

BlackMalinois - I too would like to see a show line dog on the BSP and, if people are prepared to do the right amount of training and dedication to that end then anything is possible if both sides stick together.

I would also like to see a grey, black or bi colour in the VA Group. This problem of colour was caused by the President of the SV Hermann Martin when he, without consultation or a vote from the Club on the topic, unilaterally decided that there was no place for dogs of these colours in the show lines. Anyone who opposed him was just moved aside. These colours are still in the breed standard and it is up to Club Members of the SV to get them introduced once again.

Mackenzie

Bavarian Wagon - I agree with your comments. There is a risk from both sides in using an animal from the other side. But each side must start talking to each other with the working line helping the show line to improve the workability of their dogs. The show line people should also help the working side with their anatomical problems. I do not think that anyone with an absolute top dog from either side would want to risk their reputation by just using something or anything in the beginning from the other side. The anatomy from the working line should also be satisfactory as a starting point in the same way that the W/L people want something from the other side to encourage them to move closer.

This whole thing is a slow process which will take a long time to get the desired results , it is not something which can be achieved overnight. The first thing is that there must be more dialogue between the two sides to ensure there is no division in the breed.

Mackenzie